Wolves on the Westside?

Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by scottr, Aug 19, 2012.

  1. Joe Goodfellow

    Joe Goodfellow Active Member

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    Wolves are killing sheep to keep balance. The western societies don't know anything about that. If people would stop and think what where doing to this planet. We would be better off if we just let nature do its thing. Man thinks we own this planet that's wrong we belong to this earth. Our mother earth is going to wipe us out if we don't change.
     
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  2. ChrisC

    ChrisC Active Member

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    Practice what you preach and make a visit to Bonneville dam for its all too many "sea kittens".
     
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  3. TallFlyGuy

    TallFlyGuy Adipossessed!

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    LOL Total nonsense.
     
  4. Jason Rolfe

    Jason Rolfe Wanderer

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    Hi TFG,

    Just curious about your statement that wolves "sport kill," as I've seen something similar said in other places on this thread, and I also responded to a similar post by Ribka.

    I guess my trouble with that statement is the idea that the wolves are just doing this for "sport," with no real reason behind it. Killing for sport is indeed something that we (humans) do, and we know that we do it because we talk about it, etc.

    But with wolves, I feel like there must be some deeper reason for it. As I said earlier, I think that in most instances a wild animal is not going to expend energy unless they get a good return on that energy. We see this in fishing--fish aren't going to move from a holding lie unless they get a good return on that (either a tasty meal, or maybe scaring something away that might be competing with them).

    So with the wolves, there must be some reason that they would expend the energy to kill livestock and not eat them. We can't say that they are just heartless brutes being cruel to sheep. We may not understand why they do it, but I think we should assume they have some good reason for doing it.

    And this isn't to say that it is okay, or that it is a free pass for wolves to do it. Far from it. I agree that if a pack of wolves is decimating a rancher's herd, then he/she should have the right to protect his/her herd, or the appropriate government agency should step in and help.

    All I'm saying is, let's not insert an emotional, qualitative idea into the argument. Maybe it's just a matter of semantics, but I think it's important not to assign our own labels to these actions in that way.

    Cheers,

    Jason
     
  5. TallFlyGuy

    TallFlyGuy Adipossessed!

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    OK, follow me on this logic...

    IF you put a couple wolves in large 10,000ft x 10,000ft pen, with 15 elk, what is going to happen. According to most here, the wolves are so smart and wonderful they will only kill one elk a month because they are so smart and yada dada yada dada. Do you really think Wolves are that smart? Wolves are opportunistic, and if there is an opportunity for an easy fresh kill/meal, it will be killed. Pretty plain and simple.
     
  6. Jason Rolfe

    Jason Rolfe Wanderer

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    Of course.

    I'm not sure that really addressed my post though. Unless you are trading "sport" killing for "opportunistic" killing.

    In that sense, I think I would probably agree. They see an opportunity and they take it--that's what we would expect a wild animal to do. It's not a matter of them being "smart," as you rightly point out.

    And to be fair, I don't think anyone here would assume that wolves "are so wonderful and smart" that they will ration their supply of elk. I certainly didn't say that. I think most contributors to this thread have done a good job of staying away from hyperbole and making superfluous statements of that sort.

    Cheers,

    Jason
     
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  7. TallFlyGuy

    TallFlyGuy Adipossessed!

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    Sport killing/Opportunistic killing.... However you want to describe the mass killing and waste of wildlife by wolves. What are you meaning when you say they have a "deeper" meaning or some other "smart" rationale for killing/wasting so much? Simply put, they kill when they can. There is no other "deeper meaning" as you insinuate there might be.
     
  8. Kent Lufkin

    Kent Lufkin Remember when you could remember everything?

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    Actually there's quite a bit of documentation of behavior in MANY different animals who will cache food against leaner times when hunting/foraging might not allow them to feed otherwise. Think of squirrels and other rodents who stash acorns before winter.

    In his wonderful book Gifts of the Crow, author John Marzluff, assistant professor of Wildlife Science at the UW's College of Forest Resources, cites numerous examples of how crows and other corvids will not only stash food, but will rehide it if they think competitors may have seen where they originally hid it.

    He documents how corvid's brains actually expand during times of the year in which there's an abundance of food, a strategy that allows them to accurately remember where they hid excess food. As 'harvest' season passes and they gradually retrieve the food they hid, their brains slowly shrink to normal size and the process repeats the following year.

    If crows are smart enough and adapted to plan ahead for future food needs, why would anybody think that wolves are too stupid to do the same?

    K
     
  9. TallFlyGuy

    TallFlyGuy Adipossessed!

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    I'm sure many of the dead elk, killed by wolves, who are left to rot in the mid summer sun were left there for leaner times. I'm also sure all the cattle and sheep that were killed in august were there for a short time, cuz wolves were gonna come back and butcher them up and put them in trees or in their freezer somewhere in the woods.
     
  10. Jason Rolfe

    Jason Rolfe Wanderer

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    Hey Kent,

    I absolutely agree. I was only referring to TFG's hypothetical situation where wolves are penned up with elk. I think wolves are probably far more intelligent and intentional than some folks are giving them credit for.

    I'm wondering if there are any studies or theories that explain why wolves would kill something (livestock, for example) without eating it. Would be interesting to learn more about that occurrence. I'd also be interested in learning how often this actually happens.

    Jason
     
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  11. Kent Lufkin

    Kent Lufkin Remember when you could remember everything?

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    TFG, you sound completely convinced that wolves deliberately engage in wholesale, wanton slaughter of elk, cattle and sheep just for the sheer fun of it. Perhaps you can back up your assertions with some facts?

    K
     
  12. Jason Rolfe

    Jason Rolfe Wanderer

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    By the way,

    I think I have a problem. I am addicted to this effing thread. I was trying to spend time in other forums, but I just keep coming back. Ugh! I guess I'm just a glutton for punishment.

    My name is Jason, and I'm a threadaholic.
     
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  13. Kent Lufkin

    Kent Lufkin Remember when you could remember everything?

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    Me too. The only time I've heard or read anything about that is when it comes from the 'Only Good Wolf is a Dead Wolf' crowd.

    Anybody ever see or read Farley Mowat's Never Cry Wolf?

    K
     
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  14. Kent Lufkin

    Kent Lufkin Remember when you could remember everything?

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    Hahaha! I've gotta get some work done and make a few bucks this afternoon. Over and out.

    K
     
  15. Bob Newman

    Bob Newman Active Member

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    I've been trying to avoid any response to this thread but .....

    If you put two wolves in a big pen with 15 elk, you will have two dead wolves in short order.
     
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