Wolves on the Westside?

TFG,
Just trying to understand something here and not trying to argue the points you made but did Tom Bergerud explain how the wolves that were here before not cause extinction of caribou herds in the past? Or perhaps they did?

I don't know enough about this issue to form an opinion one way or the other but I will say this thread has been quite a read.
This seems to be a "grey" area. There is some evidence coming forth that native Indians controlled the wolf population as well, doing everything they could to kill off packs that came into their hunting area. Just spend some time up north in Alaska and you will see how the natives hate and treat the wolf. How or why the larger Canadian grey wolf stayed up north in canada and not down here is unknown.
 
That doesn't explain why they now can eliminate entire caribou herds and not do so in the past or is it these wolves were not present in the same areas the caribor herds were in? Again, I am just trying to understand.
Its also important to understand the term "herd". Think of it as a small population of animals in a specific area. "the lolo" herd etc. Wolves wipe out one herd, and then move on to the next. He is not referring to the entire population of caribou as a species etc.
 
Thank TFG, I am starting to understand. Interesting point about native indians. Makes sense they would do what they could to eliminate competition.
Yep, I'm sure that is the one and only reason, just like you and thousands of others are trying to point out that is the only reason why wolves are being killed now in ID, recently in WA, and soon MT, WY etc. Never mind the mountain of evidence and research showing otherwise cuz it's not how "you" want it to be.
 

KerryS

Ignored Member
Yep, I'm sure that is the one and only reason, just like you and thousands of others are trying to point out that is the only reason why wolves are being killed now in ID, recently in WA, and soon MT, WY etc. Never mind the mountain of evidence and research showing otherwise cuz it's not how "you" want it to be.
Hey now, leave me out of your statement. I have no opinion one way or the other in regards to wolves. I don't have enough information to form a good one. You have helped me understand some of the evidence but understanding one small piece does not make an opinion.
 

Ed Call

Well-Known Member
Thank TFG, I am starting to understand. Interesting point about native indians. Makes sense they would do what they could to eliminate competition.
If the Native Americans eliminated the competition in the hunting grounds, then the Transplanted Americans are trying to do the same thing now. Did the Native Americans exterminate all the wolves, or was it the Transplanted Americans? Today's elk hunters fear the competition that the wolf poses in the field? Is that why the elk hunters are dropping so many other elk hunters these days?
 

bennysbuddy

the sultan of swing
I'm sure you also believe the NAZI Holocaust was just a bunch of media and propaganda as well, and not a real crisis. You seem to be in your own little false sense of reality. I'm sure its a great little place for you. When you are ready to come out of your world of fantasy, Tinkerbell, and pixie dust, and have something concrete and supported by things other than your opinion we can chat.
as I've said before.. These debates are like aurgueing with the wife, in a short amount of time its hard to tell what the topic is!!!!!!
 
If the Native Americans eliminated the competition in the hunting grounds, then the Transplanted Americans are trying to do the same thing now. Did the Native Americans exterminate all the wolves, or was it the Transplanted Americans? Today's elk hunters fear the competition that the wolf poses in the field? Is that why the elk hunters are dropping so many other elk hunters these days?

:D
 

BaldBob

Active Member
Jason Rolfe said:
I'm wondering if there are any studies or theories that explain why wolves would kill something (livestock, for example) without eating it. Would be interesting to learn more about that occurrence. I'd also be interested in learning how often this actually happens.​
Quote="Kent Lufkin, post: 759123, member: 303"]Me too. The only time I've heard or read anything about that is when it comes from the 'Only Good Wolf is a Dead Wolf' crowd.

Anybody ever see or read Farley Mowat's Never Cry Wolf?

K[/quote]


http://www.bakercityherald.com/Local-News/Photos-confirm-wolves-killed-Keating-lambs
http://www.bakercityherald.com/Local-News/Rancher-issued-permit-to-kill-wolves

Now you can read about a verified instance. While. as stated by the wolf expert quoted in the first article, such instances of wolves killing far more than they intend to eat are not the norm, they do happen with some regularity. It should be noted that these wolves crossed about 5 miles of open farm ground, passing near several homes and crossing a paved road, before killing these sheep in lambing sheds which are within 200 yards of the rancher's house.The wolves made no attempt to eat any of their kill. The second attack the following fall occurred despite the rancher following all the recommendations of the wolf experts to keep the wolves from attacking his sheep. In this attack the wolves ate the goat they killed, but made no attempt to consume any of the sheep they killed. It is likely that the wolves in the second attack are different ones than those in the first attack, since the first attack pair were trapped and fitted with transmitters that would send a signal to receivers given the ranchers to alert them when those wolves were in their neighborhood. They got no such transmissions.

You may want to read a little about Mr. Mowat and how his so called research has been discredited before you cite his work. He responded to challenges of his "findings" by saying that " When the facts disagree with what you know to be the truth, F--- the facts."

BTW- Yes its true that grazing rates per AUM (Animal Unit Month - 1 cow/calf pair or 5 sheep for one month) on Federal land are much much less than on private land. However the operating costs of running livestock on Federal land may make up the difference. Until I retired about 10 years ago, I managed about 300,000 acres of private timberland (not improved pasture),in NE Oregon/ SE Washington, that was also mostly all leased for grazing. Despite the fact that we charged a rate /AUM many times what the feds charged, I had several lessees that gave up their federal grazing permits to get one of our leases, and had numerous others on our waiting list who wanted to do likewise.
 

Jim Ficklin

Genuine Montana Fossil
. . . like aurgueing with the wife
There are only 2 approaches to arguing with a woman. Neither of them work.

As for wolf depredations documenting slaughters versus hunting for food . . . granted this is a couple years old, but it happens. Considering the location, OMJ likely grumped them out of the country by now, tho . . . http://missoulian.com/article_5ff01772-938f-11de-9aca-001cc4c03286.html

I can personally note that I don't see the numbers of moose in the Big Hole country that I used to & former hunting partners in my home state have observed thriving elk herds that are no longer "thriving." Could be coincidence, or it could be wolf depredation? When elk herds are in trouble, hunting quotas can be reduced or ended completely; this is a bit difficult to enforce when dealing with a wolf pack/packs. Fact of the matter is that where native wolf populations existed, their numbers were small, thus less impact and limited pack growth; following re-introduction, their numbers increased and unfortunately, wild ungulates & livestock have paid the price. I'm not a "shoot them all on sight" proponent, but I AM a "regulate them" proponent. Said regulation has been long in coming.
 

Kent Lufkin

Remember when you could remember everything?
Thanks for your post Bob. I found it interesting that the report you cite suggests there were a couple of different wolf groups involved in the attack, one collared and the other not. Since I believe that most wolf packs nucleate around an alpha female, I wonder whether the 'sport killing' attacks some mention are her way of demonstrating attack strategies to younger members - teaching by example as it were?

In my earlier mention of Farley Mowat, I wasn't attempting to introduce his writing or research as gospel, but rather as a feeble attempt to lighten the mood here. It's been 20 years or more since I saw Never Cry Wolf and never read the book. I do remember vividly however, the scene when he fell through the ice covering a frozen lake, sinking quickly. Seemed an appropriate analogy for how parts of this thread have gone!

(As a side note, one only has to look at news coverage from events over the past several days for more evidence of how little respect even our own would-be leaders have for the truth, with near complete amnesia for what they may have said or written earlier. Mr. Mowat's 'Fuck the facts' attitude you mentioned is certainly alive and well in contemporary America politics.)

K