Wolves on the Westside?

Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by scottr, Aug 19, 2012.

  1. Jason Rolfe

    Jason Rolfe Wanderer

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    What's funny about this thread is that it shows you, very clearly, three distinct types of people:

    1. Those with the attitude of protect the wolves no matter what, humans are the ultimate problem, and anyone who disagrees is an idiot.
    2. Those with the attitude of "I don't trust this government funded program, wolves are bad, taxes taxes blah blah." Actually, this argument gets more and more boring every time I read it, and it's obvious that these folks have made up their mind and don't have the patience to actually read up on the issue, learn about it, and wait and see what might come of it.
    3. Those who have heard of a little thing called logic. People who don't mind looking into both sides of the issue, seeing the merits of both. These are people who realize that taking extreme sides--having an all or nothing attitude--will get you nowhere and will severely limit any opportunity you might have to actually learn something. Salmo_g said it very well: Try reading; information does wonders.

    Luckily, it seems like most folks on here fall into the 3rd category. I suppose we can maybe learn something, now and then, from those in the first 2 categories--but it's annoying having to wade through all the crap to get there.

    Jason
     
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  2. Derek Day

    Derek Day Rockyday

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    They pay around $1.50/AUM (Animal Unit Month) to graze on public land. That is the range necessary to support a cow and her calf for a month. Market rates are close to $20/AUM on private pasture.

    I'll qualify this by saying that most public lands are not as productive as private grazing lands, so it takes a greater range to support an AUM.

    Why aren't we mad that the state/feds are spending money to protect cattle interests on public land that are being leased at below market rates? (See recent wedge pack culling) So far almost one wolf has been killed (hunted or "managed") for every confirmed wolf depredation.

    BTW, Nate, your comments are threatening to upend an uncharacteristically civil conversation. I would sugest that you refrain from further speculative rants. If you have something positive to contribute, feel free.
     
  3. Derek Young

    Derek Young 2011 Orvis Endorsed Fly Fishing Guide Of The Year

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    This is my point - ranchers are paying far below market-value for the use of public lands, and then asking for reimbursement when one of their animals falls to an apex predator, on public lands? This is either corruption or hypocrisy at it's finest.
     
  4. Trustfunder

    Trustfunder Active Member

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    Read all you want with an eye on skepticism towards the source, if the studies/management guidelines you've read doesn't add up to the experience afield then you become jaded like me. Common sense goes a long way in what a wolf is created to do.

    The issue is management, the controversy is about numbers and how can one develop a plan without fully realizing the situation of a highly mobile, very reproductive species that has an impact like no other preadator. I'd be more comfortable with wolves if this had been a natural migration, (and it's been documented in GNP in the 70's, the Bob in the 80's, Ninemile pack in the 90's, this sounds like a natural balance to me...see I read too) but someone more scholarly than me decided we needed more wolves to restore the natural balance and hide it under the ESA.

    In our current state (MT) of affairs, we hunters would like to thank Idaho for giving us the idea to dispatch up to 3 wolves per person this season. I have nothing against the wolf, I think every dyed in the wool, blue blooded Montanan should own a pelt or two. When balance is restored then I might be crying for a wolf howl in my old age.

    Time to harvest the corn!
     
  5. bennysbuddy

    bennysbuddy the sultan of swing

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    This is a interesting debate, Ranchers getting a deal on public range land. It's like tring to estimate how much money the taxpayers put into fisheries so people can make a living as a fishing guide off a public resource. wheres the hypocrisy ???
     
  6. Derek Young

    Derek Young 2011 Orvis Endorsed Fly Fishing Guide Of The Year

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    Didn't take you very long to go there, did it? I pay what the State requires me to, in fact my commercial guide license increased last year by 50%, with no changes in enforcement, land acquisition, restoration, or otherwise. And I'll gladly pay more AS I act as a steward for the land, the fish, and everyone's ability to enjoy the fisheries. There's no hypocrisy here. Get back on topic.
     
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  7. Flyborg

    Flyborg Active Member

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    I'm pretty sure we pay them to use public lands :) Hooray for federal subsidies.
     
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  8. Bill Aubrey

    Bill Aubrey Active Member

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    Wow! Three walk off homers. Congrats Salmo_g, Jason and Derek Young.
     
  9. Derek Young

    Derek Young 2011 Orvis Endorsed Fly Fishing Guide Of The Year

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    Here's another way to look at it - imagine an angler sending a bill to WDFW for each fish taken from the river by the eagles, osprey, otters, etc. It's ridiculous.
     
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  10. inland

    inland Active Member

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    Skeered of the big bad woof? Nah. Haven't spent a lot of time with them in the woods. Had one feeding on a moose head a hunter left on the river bank, less than 20 yards from the steelhead run I was fishing. Saw several others as parts of a packs throughout various other trips to the hinterlands of BC. Many times well within 50 yards.

    Grizz bars? Now those make me nervous in the woods. One must take special precaution to stay outside in grizz bar country. Let alone black bar country. One does not fish 20 yards from a grizz bar without a care in the world.

    Bullwinkle? Um. Considering I have seen about the same number of grizz bars and woofs as moose in the woods. I don't like bullwinkle or his girlfriend. Especially his girlfriend with youngins. The only trouble I have ever had in the woods (aside from blood sucking insects driving one to the brink of insanity) with critters has been bullwinkle.

    Well there are skunks. I am a shitpile more skeered of a skunk then a woof or bar or moose.

    And rattler snakes. Not skeered of snakes. Just PAY ATTENTION. My son is skeered to death of them. When he gets buzzed he does this funny levitation uncontrollable groaning thing. I kinda like them because they are spooky.

    Other humans? Yep. In general the worst trouble one will ever encounter be fellow sapiens sapiens. Especially the ones that live in rural areas with woofs. Not a one of them isn't packing a concealed handgun. And there are the ones that smash and grab what they wish from a vehicle left on quiet backwoods roads.

    I do like to hunt big game. Especially the food source that causes all of the hate towards woofs. 'Save a hundred elk, shoot a wolf' bumper stickers. And so on. I guess I don't mind woofs in the wild even though they do impact the herds. I relish the challenge.

    As a fisherman first I do like the fact that yellerstone cutts have appreciated the return of the beaver in a select few drainages. Once the ungulates with big beautiful racks (and tasty meat) stopped stomping and eating all the willows the soft pelted PITA mammal showed back up. They did what they do and dammed the cricks. Them yellerstone cutts liked it and numbers of fish grew. Kinda how it is supposed to work.

    Long live the managed woof pack in the wilds...
     
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  11. tythetier

    tythetier Fish Slayer

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    My wife and some friends saw one come up behind me up at Crystal Mtn.
    We went to their big new years party, and I brought my snow disc. Bout 11:30 or so, I hiked up I think it is called Chair 9 run till I ran out of breath, gave a 'hey watch my dumb drunk @ss!!!' and sled down the hill.
    When I got to the bottom they were all frantic.... You didnt hear us yelling at you?!?!?! A big black dog came out of the brush behind you and was creeping up on you!!!!
    They said it was way bigger than a pet or coyote. Didnt bug me, I just wanted another beer....

    The way I look at it, no wild animals pay attention to fences... They will run where ever their hearts desire or where the food is.
     
  12. Roper

    Roper Idiot Savant

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    Jeezus, you're like my ex-wife, always quick to to tell me what or what not to do....:)
     
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  13. Skysoldier

    Skysoldier Trout Hunter

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    Lol OB I doubt I could teach you anything you don't already know :)
     
  14. Deep fried

    Deep fried New Member

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  15. Stonefish

    Stonefish Triploid, Humpy & Seaplane Hater

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