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You can't have it both ways!

13K views 173 replies 62 participants last post by  jessejames 
#1 ·
I am tired of hearing that people went into a fly shop to check out some new gear, (rods, reels, vises, materials, books, even trying on clothing, boots etc), asking the shop people some questions, and then promptly ordered the item from amazon or some similar site. Sometimes this online ordering was done with a smartphone from the very shops in question. This is just low. Im sorry, but if you think that some screen zombie at amazon is going to help you in any aspect of flyfishing, aside from a cheaper price, then you are totally lost. Don't lament the loss of fly shops in these past few years, and then come bragging here that you saved a lot of money on the internet. Fly Shops are more expensive because they provide merchandise and a service within a highly specialized and diverse set of activities. It is much more than just a job to run a fly shop. For many shop owners this is a way of life. Next time you are in a new location, looking for information on waters, hatches, flys etc, try calling amazon or some other sales site and see how that works out. Pissed! NOTE: (Saturday june 9 4:30 pm) Most of the replies to this topic are so far off topic it is become a sad reminder of what we have lost. And to the people who have a need to attack each other here I say: good thing we have some decent fishing weather coming!
 
#110 ·
I've spread my larger purchases between the net and the brick.I never get quite as good a deal from brick places but I found a shop that I like so I feel perfecly fine knowing I'm supporting something local.I also like the fact that the guy throws me a little bone no matter what I buy.Not so much the discount but the feeling of being appreciated as a customer.
 
#111 ·
Since I don't tie flies the local fly shop is
where I get them.

The Morning Hatch closed and now I have
Gig Harbor and Anil's shops.
Both great by the way.....
Everything you could ask for with advice,
tips, and things I need NOW are there.

Big ticket items, which I seldom purchase,
are done on the web. Waders, Rods, Reels etc....
I tend to buy older proven equipment versus
the latest and newest. However I do and will
continue to support the local shops in my
small dollar way. They are important to everyone
in the fly fishing community.

Dave
 
#112 ·
I personally love to shop at fly shops. I stop at them in most all the towns I fish near. I buy most all my gear from them. I do have to say though that if I walk into a fly shop and the crew behind the counter acts like a bunch of pompus ass clowns, i walk right back out. I used to live in Asheville NC and there are three fly shops in the area. One is in a very rich upscale part of town and mostly has shit you would never use or could afford, but they had a staff that was top notch. I went in there quite a bit and bought what I could from them. The relationships I developed with the staff there was great. The second shop was the big shop in town and had all your fly fishing needs. Even had some great deals on the sales rack. The staff there were all to a one total dickheads. I went in there three times. The first time was to get flamed out and ignored for being a yankee. Told the "hot spot" was a local ditch. The second time in there was to show off the great waders that I bought from across town (they did not like this). The third time was to tell them that one of their former employees had jumped ship on them and is now working across town.

The third shop was soon to become my home away from home. They had a good selection and a great staff. But what they really had going for them is the crew loved customers. They talked to everyone and didn't try to rip anyone off. Never did I hear "this fly is the one" and it wasn't.

As far as online. I don't think I have ever had a great experience with my own computer, other than with porn.
 
#113 ·
Amazing input in this rapidly expanding six pages. I like my local shop. I like nearly every other shop that I've been in. I don't have a lot of cash, but for the information and service available I don't mind parting with some of my money for a nice fly shop experience. Online shopping has its place. Buying used has its place. Buying at a local shop has its place.

Insulting other people just to fail at attempting to make your point has no place. It only proves what an ass you are willing to admit to being. I'd prefer you keep that to yourself. (I figure the few of you that should know that I'm referring to you actually are smart enough to figure out that I am directed this your way.)

I've never been able to try on something from the internet then buy it at my local shop. Doing the reverse seems rude to me. I like your approach Jesse, you still dealt with that person with integrity and respect and eventually that person likely will return. Maybe this time they return to actually open their wallet. You are a very respectable man, run a nice shop and I'm glad to have visited it and met John...who I can only assess is a lot like his father, congratulations!

Now as to one of the most significant underlying problems with small businesses here in Washington, and presumably other states. Until the online environment is forced to charge the same amount as the brick and mortar store, including sales tax, the online environment will have an advantage. That advantage will constantly be embattled with quality products at the fingertips of in store shoppers being presented by quality customer service agents. Every one of us will have to pick a side in that battle every time we have something we want. If you stick your neck out beyond the interwebs and electronic only interaction you will find that those relationships you forge in a shop will be worth the time of stepping away from your keyboard and spending a bit more at the shop.

It is stupid that I can buy a Sage high end rod from an online shop based in Ohio at a prices that are below the factory set price, below what any local shop can sell them for, and that they don't charge you sales tax or shipping. I don't give a rats ass what kind of education anyone has, anyone that can comprehend anything can see that there is more to this than is totally in control of the local shop guy.
 
#116 ·
If you stick your neck out beyond the interwebs and electronic only interaction you will find that those relationships you forge in a shop will be worth the time of stepping away from your keyboard and spending a bit more at the shop.
Hehe, hehe... he said stepping away from your keyboard... hehe, hehe... 14,770... hehe, hehe...

Sorry, is that how you make a beavis/butthead type voice in print...?

...or is it more like: huhu, huhu... huhu, huhu...
 
#115 ·
I'm seeing a theme here and it made me think of my own experience--not at a fly shop, but at the wholesalers I buy parts and equipment from to do my job. The ones I go to, or call first when I need a part, are the ones that know me. They know my name, and razz me as much as get razzed by me when I'm in their store. This internet thing is cool, the buying and Windows shopping, forums like this, texting, emailing, but its setting up in society a hunger for personal contact. I can talk to you, and read your responses, but it ain't the same as a friendly chat over a glass of water or cup of coffee. I suspect the answer to the need created by the net, is personalism. Instead of a customer, treat me as a friend, and I'll be in your store as frequently as I can....but I'm no marketing guru, just a customer.
 
#124 ·
As a small business owner we face the same problems with buyers ordering online after we provide demo equipment and do all the heavy lifting, and they always say it cost less. It only cost less cause they don't do the work. I will always support my shops. Just yesterday I stopped by Creekside and was given a great contact for Hardy as I am looking for a older reel and thats why I buy from them when I have a need.

Please support the local shops
 
#125 ·
Maybe this has nothing to do with the dynamics of the fly fishing business but who comparison shops for purchases besides fly fishing gear?

If I'm shopping for a car, I'm going to go to several dealerships probably with a short list of mfgs and models in mind, test drive them all, whittle down my choices, and buy where I feel I am getting the best value for what I can afford. Should I feel guilty if I test drive a car but buy the same model at another store that gives me a better price or financing?

I don't have have the cash to buy often, I am not a trader - I keep what I buy, and I make good buying decisions, but I appreciate high end guitars. Many instrument makers have MRPAs too. Now I've found that identical models side by side will sound different and with the exception of two custom built instruments, I simply wont buy sight unseen or unplayed. I won't compromise on sound but (if I did) should I feel bad about trying out a guitar at one shop but buying the same model at another because of a better price or at MRPA with a good case included that would cost $150 or more? (I don't finance instruments or fly fishing gear)

All that said, I won't go to a fly shop, test cast rods and buy the same rod on line. However I am very willing to buy online after doing my own online research. I would like and actually expect to see package deals of some sort that other small brick and mortar shops offer in their online catalogs. Maybe that means free personalized instruction or something significant but not material. And aggressive online sales may be a tactic that shops need to adopt to survive with the times.

My son is a beginner who borrows my unused early 90s gear but wants to buy his first 5-weight outfit. He was thinking of mail order but I've got him talked into visiting one or two local shops where he can test cast, get some advice, buy his gear, and take some classes. We will be taking some time to shop this Saturday afternoon after we do a performance.
 
#126 ·
I find that the Orvis shop we have here, they tend to be snooty. Perhaps because they cater to the higher class people in Charlottesville who don't have to ask how much something is but, I have found them to be not very helpful or know anything about the local waters.

I have also found that if you find a rod you like online and they carry it at the local store, they will do thier best to get the price down or match it if they can. Most local shops might have a bit larger overhead but, I don't consider thier prices to be so much higher than most online sites.
 
#130 ·
I find that the Orvis shop we have here, they tend to be snooty. Perhaps because they cater to the higher class people in Charlottesville who don't have to ask how much something is but, I have found them to be not very helpful or know anything about the local waters.

I have also found that if you find a rod you like online and they carry it at the local store, they will do thier best to get the price down or match it if they can. Most local shops might have a bit larger overhead but, I don't consider thier prices to be so much higher than most online sites.
It's not a question of doing our best to mat, we must match all our channel prices. Online, catalog and retail prices at Orvis are the same.

Leland.
 
#127 ·
With so many retail price mandated by tackle manufacturers, I don't see a lot of price differences between on-line, big box, or local shops for a lot of the things I want. I realize most of my savings by shopping sales on name brand goods, buying last year's name brand goods that are closed out or liquidated to places like STP ($60 Simms fishing shirt for $26, but it's so "last year."), buying used gear, and lastly by buying cheaper off-shore manufactured "house label" rods for certain uses. I used to save money buying rod blanks and components and rolling my own, but now off-shore finished rods are an even cheaper alternative in many cases. A main reason I find for shopping on line is the limited inventory of a shop doesn' t always have what I want, even Cabela's big box often doesn't have what I want. I appreciate and need them all.

Sg
 
#128 ·
First let me say that a fly shop exists in Omak, WA at a Big Red outlet. The shop is very well equipped and the prices are less than what I would pay to order and have them shipped. Bought a "Loon" product that some shops in MT don't carry. I am impressed. A young gentlemen asked my wife and I if we needed help and than, even more importantly, left us alone when we said "we were just looking around". Even more impressed.

I sincerely hope that this shop stays in business.
 
#135 ·
Don, it's presumptive to aggregate all things Chinese as "cheap Chinese crap." Most of that Chinese origin merchandise is designed in the US or UK and is often sold in US shops, not just on line. The quality of some of that "cheap Chinese crap" is amazingly good, and outstanding for its price. Arrogance works against us, not for us.

Sg
 
#138 ·
I've never bought anything online. I prefer the"club" atmosphere of shops and shooting the shit. Like omj I like to hold the product in my hands and get a feel of it first. I have my favorite fly shops that I frequent for sure, but I also like to check out new ones. I don't think I've ever drove past an open flyshop without stopping. You can't blame shop owners or employees for deuches that behave like that. Leaning on a customer to make a sale like some used-car salesman smacks of bigbox store mentality, which is one of the main reasons people like me prefer mom and pop type stores. To escape that. I may be a minority in today's global marketplace, but it's loyal customers like me that keep the places alive. I've owned a small business for going on six years, and adaptation is important, but not as much as reputation.
 
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#140 ·
You seem to run into shops doing it right on your level. Nobody thinks coming across as a rude salesman is the way to go. However you are in business to sell stuff. Developing relationships, reputation , good branding goes along way and the there is no better opportunity than when people come into the shop. There is a reason most people who are good at sports are terrible coaches. Have a love for fly fishing, makes you someone who enjoys fly fishing. It does not make you good at running a shop. It makes you good are running shop for a short amount of time. Phil Jackson was a player turned coach who did great, but he also did not follow the normal path. Most fly shops fail in a good economy because the people who run them are good fly fisherman, not good business people. Being good as business is important, seems like being it is dirty on this forum to being a solid business person, like is it not "pure". Well that is nonsense and ends up is closed up shops. Just like a good shop gives good insight into fishing, a shop should ask for good insight in to business. Knowledge enables survival. BR
 
#142 ·
to add to this thread my experience today actually... I was in the market for a spey set up on the lower end of the price range for my first one. Red's fly shop on the yakima had a echo set up for $500 out the door. just to price around i could order online and save a bit more. a step further and i could have bought the same rod on this forum WITH line for $150... i went to pacific fly fishers in mill creek and asked if they could atleast match reds price he thought about it and agreed. BUT this is where supporting your local fly shop comes into play. In 5 minutes i had the very rod i wanted to buy spooled up with the employees personal reel and was casting in the pond out back. Another 5 minutes and he was out there teaching me how to snap T and got me casting 70 feet in 20 minutes. Then proceeded to give me a better line than reds, AND recommend and throw in 5 steelhead flys with know local success.... Won't get anywhere close to that on the internet
 
#146 ·
I am curious, I think coffee is big in your area of the country. Say Starbucks, people are willing to spend 50-100x the cost of brewing a cup at home, however with fly shops they are willing to waste an hour of their time to go to a shop and "try" a product on to go home and order it on line to save sales tax. Also on this site, people praise Simms waders, willing to spend a premium for their waders even though numerous other brands would perform for the most part the same. So what is the issue? Could it be Starbucks, Simms know what they are doing? People are always willing to spend the money if you provide value. BR
 
#152 ·
Starbucks is successful the same way McDonald's is: Familiarity. Most people don't want to have to try something new. They know what they're getting, even if it is the exact definition of mediocrity. There's also a convenience factor. While I can hand press a few shots of espresso at home in 5mins, it's tough to do when I travel, and other parts of the country rarely have good coffee places, so I am stuck with patronizing Starbucks to feed my caffeine addiction.

Not thinking this is 100% applicable to the fly shop world.
 
#147 ·
Now you are talking apples and oranges.

Simms isn't a fly shop - it is a product. Many products have a fan boy following that keeps them going even if the only value in the product is the name (at least Simms provides a great product too).

And as for Starbucks - some people go into the shop to sit and bullshit, but they don't waste the employee's time by doing it. And the other 95% go to the coffee shop to BUY a cup of coffee. The whole goal of the trip is to get the product, not shop around and see if they can get it cheaper than the shop down the street or on the internet.
 
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