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You can't have it both ways!

13K views 173 replies 62 participants last post by  jessejames 
#1 ·
I am tired of hearing that people went into a fly shop to check out some new gear, (rods, reels, vises, materials, books, even trying on clothing, boots etc), asking the shop people some questions, and then promptly ordered the item from amazon or some similar site. Sometimes this online ordering was done with a smartphone from the very shops in question. This is just low. Im sorry, but if you think that some screen zombie at amazon is going to help you in any aspect of flyfishing, aside from a cheaper price, then you are totally lost. Don't lament the loss of fly shops in these past few years, and then come bragging here that you saved a lot of money on the internet. Fly Shops are more expensive because they provide merchandise and a service within a highly specialized and diverse set of activities. It is much more than just a job to run a fly shop. For many shop owners this is a way of life. Next time you are in a new location, looking for information on waters, hatches, flys etc, try calling amazon or some other sales site and see how that works out. Pissed! NOTE: (Saturday june 9 4:30 pm) Most of the replies to this topic are so far off topic it is become a sad reminder of what we have lost. And to the people who have a need to attack each other here I say: good thing we have some decent fishing weather coming!
 
#8 ·
If that happens the shop is not providing enough value, you need to give the consumer a reason to spend more for the same product. If you are being used as a fitting shop for online shoppers then the problem is with the shop. BR
Wow As a shop owner I just don't how to respond to this....
I had the very thing that Bob is talking about happen to me just last week. A guy called and asked if we had a certain wading shoe in stock. I told him We did. When this customer came in the door and headde for the shoe dispaly I walked over introduced myself and asked if he was the one who called. I got the shoe he wanted out of the stack talked about the attributes of the shoe while I provided him with a neoprene bootie to make sure he had the proper sizing. While he tried on the boot we talked about local fishing opportunities. He liked the boot and it fit perfectly I asked him if he wanted to take them today and he declined. A few days later a buddy of his came in and told me he ordered them online to save the sales tax.
So mr BRsnow what value could I have added besides selling the product below MSRP or cheating the state out of their tax???
I guess I am really offended by your assertion that shop owners in general don't know how to provide good customer service and great value for the products we sell.
The big box "everything has to be on sale" mentality is hurting the fly shop business owners. Fly anglers will be lucky if there are any independant shops in business in ten years.
Enjoy your online relationships that is all you will have.
jesse
 
#30 ·
No, the guy from Colorado is exactly right. Just having stock on the shelves and guys (or gals) who think it's cool to work in a fly shop doesn't cut it. Pretty simple. Add value or you have little.
Derek is right, if something costs more it should deliver more. That's a rule of the marketplace. And as many have pointed out, lots of shops get this and deliver on it. Most probably don't - which is another rule of the marketplace. The VAST majority of small businesses fail, and they fail because they run out of financing before they accumulate the business acumen to compete and succeed. Fly shops are no exception. Giving someone your business because you are sympathetic to them does them no favors because nobody's got enough loyal friends in the marketplace to survive off of sentiment. Dream-jobs are born of passion, but businesses have to be born of business plans that are cogent and will pay for themselves before the money runs out.

Ultimately, it's business acumen + product expertise/passion that makes a small business work. In that sense, you CAN have it both ways, and you MUST have it both ways, or you'll be on the heap with the rest of the 95% of failed small businesses within 5-6 years.

BTW, I agree it's unequivocally lame and rude for someone to browse a store and then order online from another seller from within that store. Still, Amazon knows very well that one of the most valuable assets they have is their catalog information - the product descriptions, specs, weights, dimensions, etc., to say nothing of reviews. Their content is CONSTANTLY referenced by consumers (and plagiarized by other sellers) who ultimately buy elsewhere and come to Amazon only to kick tires and learn about the product. People shop around - another rule of the marketplace and companies like Amazon play by those rules too. Their catalog info is their property but it is constantly copied and pasted into ebay listings and the websites of competitors. That's life.
 
#7 ·
Exactly, a lot of these guys have no idea how to operate an inventory system and end up with way too much overhead. Have a friend who operates a guide service out of a ski rental place for just this reason, smart move in my opinion. I'll support the fly shop 10 out of 10 times though...BR, I use to live in Denver and shopped at Charlie's Fly Box, good example of someone does it right.
 
#9 ·
Well, let's face it. A lot of the fly gear is overpriced. It's time to start "dickering" with the dealer, just like a dang car salesman!! I see no need in rod manufacturer's coming out with a new rod every year like damn snow skiing equipment, but I suppose they call that "marketing"... You can buy a new fandangled fly rod on Ebay for many times for $200 less if you keep you eye out. It's pretty hard to flush $200 down a toilet. Of course, the ones I have seen on Ebay are from "fly shops", so, go figure. Clothing??? Well, we all know clothing is way overpriced. Remember men? It's a woman's world at "The Mall". You know how your woman over does it there... Vises? Overpriced. Geesus. It killed me to pay $175 for Renzetti Travler, and yet, there are vises that sell for at least twice that. I don't see the cost in manufacturing there at all, but, I guess I'm blind. Now, if some of this stuff wasn't "overpriced", I don't think we would have the problem of guys by-passing the shops. I rest my case. Oh, by the way, don't brag on here, about buying something cheaper after going to the fly shop. Bob has a good reason to be pissed.
 
#26 ·
Well, let's face it. A lot of the fly gear is overpriced. It's time to start "dickering" with the dealer, just like a dang car salesman!! I see no need in rod manufacturer's coming out with a new rod every year like damn snow skiing equipment, but I suppose they call that "marketing"...
Just because a manufacturer comes out with a new rod every year that doesn't mean you have to buy it! It's ALL marketing. Let's face it, if rod XYZ was a great rod in 2012 it will still be a great rod in 2013, 2014, 2015, etc. I'm not a gear whore, but I'm glad some of you are, and the manufacturers and retailers depend on it! No retailer is going to get rich off of me because I only buy the consumables like flies, leaders, tippet, etc. When my old waders finally crap out, I'll happily buy them from my local fly shop.
 
#10 ·
Hey Jesse, are you guys locked into MAP and have to sell at that price point authorized my the manu. or can u wiggle on the MAP? There are two basic price points in retail, MAP and MSRP. A dealer buys at direct wholesale and either has to sell at no lower than MAP or sell at MSRP if mandated by contract with said manu. Most sell at MAP unless directed by manu. to sell at MSRP. The difference betwen MAP and MSRP can be huge on big ticket items.

The reason I ask is I used to retail and install custom A/V equipment and if a customer shopped my pricing online and got a lower price, I had already negotiated with my dist. about wiggle room on MAP, I always sold at MAP. I would rather drop the price of the item by half or all the sales tax and make a sale and make SOME money than NONE at all.

Did you offer that guy the fact that you would drop half the price of sales tax on the item to keep his business local, make some money rather than none. I bet he would of purchased local rather than shopped online. If not, then that is a customer you did not want.

Not telling you how to run your business by any means, but loosing a sale over maybe $13 dollars on an item you may of profitted $75 does not seem logical. YOu can tell me to piss off on this last paragraph!:)
 
#11 ·
I can see there being an arguement from both sides....Jesse, as a consumer who loves the sport but isn't hardcore due to many other hobbies and family obligations I try to get as much info from local shops as possible and in the case you pointed out, I would have no problem paying a premium price for a product given the "experience" I get at a local shop. On the other hand, for every great shop I've been to I've been to others that the people working there turn up there noses at me because, well, I don't spend 100 days on the river or know what every single fly in the store is called. In that instance, I've walked out of stores because of the arrogance some of these shops have. To be honest, both of these come across in your post and I can see your frustration.

I work for a very large consumer goods company and the notion that companies like Simms and Sage can dictate MSRP is completely crazy. As a supplier, we merely recommend the retail based upon cost and margins but by no means would we ever pull a product from a retailer because they didn't reflect an MSRP. We would pull their special pricing but never completely pull out of the store. In the same note, what avenue is there for a local shop to merely take less margin on a product and reflect a similar retail to those online stores? Realizing operating expenses are different but consolidating inventories, driving margins and retail to a competitive level may mitigate some of those loses. If a dealer pulls out of your store, why can't product be sourced from a wholesaler and resold at a slightly higher retail so one stays competitive with the larger box stores while still having the local shop feel. Heck, look at sourcing mid to high end gear from a private label company and throw your own label on it, just another option.

Being a small business owner is a tough gig, being a successful one is even harder and that's why many folks don't do it....if it were easy, everyone would do it. Local fly shops will be around in 10 years because guys like myself refuse to buy from online only stores, its just the way that the local fly shop goes to market that may be different. Just my $0.02 from an outsider/ consumer perspective....
 
#12 ·
think about this, everything is sales. As Derek said, ask for the sale. Coffee is for closers, and closing isnt a dirty word.

There are too many outlets of product for someone to be lock step devoted to one or another. With that said, i
am very devoted to my local shop of choice because of a non sales attribute.

SERVICE, service, service

It's my hang out, my club, bullshitting central when we all return from fishing trips. it has the feel I am looking for and in turn I play for the flies and the items I need from them. It never, never fails that I at least drop 10-15 bucks at a minimum per trip each time i am there, and I am there probably 2 times per week.

I feel like I get consistent service and they've become my friends. That's why I shop there and they take care of me and treat me like my money is appreciated although I know I am nowhere near the top 20 customers in amount of money I spend there. In return, I push business their way like fuggin crazy especially with beginners because they TAKE CARE OF THEIR CUSTOMERS
 
#13 ·
Just a question---what if the shop owners didn't allow "fitting" untill after the sale, something like, "...if you pay for the boots, I'll make sure you walk out with a pair that fits right..."

I feel your pain as shop owners, it's been happening to the HVAC trade for years now. Someone calls up and wants us to install a furnace they bought off eBay, with parts they bought from Home Depot (not quite the quality we want to put our names on). On the other hand, I've gone "fishing" in the local fly shops many times, and generally for your effort and answers, I try to buy something. I think if you made a rule that you buy first, then we'll match you up with the right equipment you may tik some folks off, but they probly wouldn't have been customers anyways. (a lot of HVAC outfits will charge the same to install a furnace bought off eBay as if you bought it from them---w/o the warranty)
 
#14 ·
As for why fly shops could be failing I think is not due to the availability or ease of purchasing items online. I believe it's due to the ease with which one can find product information, reviews, and general expertise on the internet. The salesman is no longer the first point of contact for information, they're just the one with the goods. Doctors aren't even immune from this. My father was a car salesman, and tells me if he were to sell cars now he would just be an order taker. As to how shoppers are able bypass having to avail themselves of fly shop expertise, I don't think you have to look any further than this website. It's an archive of information including product reviews from guides, fly shop owners, authors, and all the rest of us, and for the most part, it seems pretty unbiased.

I'm at the poorest point I think I'll ever experience. If I had the money, I'd go to a shop for large purchases. Not just for the expertise and the product selection, but for the sense of community. Until that time, I scour the internet for clearance and dead stock. Do I feel guilty? yes.
 
#15 ·
I agree with Abomb, as an owner of a small fly shop you should be asking very hard questions on the vendors end. If someone else is selling the same product at a lower price (perhaps by volume orders) how do you expect me as a fly shop to compete?
If the vendor comes back at his best offer for that line of product and it doesn't compare given the markup to larger outlets then it's probably time to find a new vendor, one who takes interest in you/them making coin.

As for the book mentioned in the start post, find something to sell that's unique and Amazon doesn't sell.

I also agree with Abomb's comments as this is not a Wal-Mart, some customers (even in big box stores) you don't want or need them as a customer. You want to find the customers you like to sell to and keep them interested for years. It's your core customer base. Get to know them by name, how they like to fish, items bought over the years, la la la... I could keep going but I wont.

What else intrigues me is how small fly shops are ignoring how people are searching/shopping for gear, this could work in favor to move seasonal merchandise and prepare for next years inventory.

Lastly I will tell you a story on why I don't shop at small fly shops anymore. I had a few bad years of breaking rods while floating, running into bushes, getting rods caught in raft frames, trucks etc. I got sick and tired of asking the small fly shop now what... well I can't do anything for you, you must buy a new rod I guess. That's when I started buying rods at Cabelas online, if I break it my only out of cost expense was shipping 12-15 bucks... I would get a brand new rod back in a week. What the small shop didn't realize is I wasn't fishing for a fashion show (Loomis, Sage, Winston, Powell rods) on the river, I was out there to catch fish. They failed to get to know me and that's why they lost my business.
 
#16 ·
the other side of the equation is that the manufacturers have created some of this by selling to the big box outlets. it used to be that premium fly fishing products and brands were only found at shops. now the big names are in cabelas, bass pro, and other large outlets.

with the internet, sales tax becomes an issue for many local shops. i do not know, but it seems that covering the tax for the customer is not discounting the MSRP as the customer did pay the MSRP. i'm not sure but there should be some allowable sales tax wiggle room to allow for shops to compete with the huge number of out of state online shops now available.

shops that survive and thrive are gracious with those who try on stuff and buy online. those people can be turned into customers but not by treating them badly but giving them great service regardless. they may not always become good customers but the other side of the online world is that negative feelings towards shops can linger much longer and are harder to erase.
 
#17 ·
Buy your gear where you like, but don't rip folks off. That is what you are doing when you walk into a shop use the gear to try out, take up people's time and pick their brains and then spend your money somewhere else. Yes an item may be more expensive in a local shop, but you've received extra value in the knowledge of the staff and in the ability to try on and try out the gear; if these services have no value, then why did you go into the shop in the first place.

After you've done this a couple of times, don't expect a friendly reception; and if you keep it up, don't expect the shop to survive.

And no, I don't own a fly shop.
 
#19 ·
I am tired of hearing that people went into a fly shop to check out some new gear, (rods, reels, vises, materials, books, even trying on clothing, boots etc), asking the shop people some questions, and then promptly ordered the item from amazon or some similar site. Sometimes this online ordering was done with a smartphone from the very shops in question. This is just low. Im sorry, but if you think that some screen zombie at amazon is going to help you in any aspect of flyfishing, aside from a cheaper price, then you are totally lost. Don't lament the loss of fly shops in these past few years, and then come bragging here that you saved a lot of money on the internet. Fly Shops are more expensive because they provide merchandise and a service within a highly specialized and diverse set of activities. It is much more than just a job to run a fly shop. For many shop owners this is a way of life. Next time you are in a new location, looking for information on waters, hatches, flys etc, try calling amazon or some other sales site and see how that works out. Pissed!
The way I read Bob's comment is if you want to buy online then do it just don't screw the shop owner over in the process. His store's inventory is not a display case for online outlets and taking up his/her time fitting clothes, trying rods, etc. with the intension of buying online is a really crappy thing to do.

And I agree.
 
#20 ·
With my job, I get a lot of gear for free, and a lot of stuff at discount. I still make every effort I can to go spend money at my local fly shop, even if I can get what I'm buying through one of my "industry connections." I just find these places too valuable to not have. They do so much to get new people in to this sport, and work so hard doing what they do. Not the case with every shop, but we have plenty around the Seattle area that do. Puget Sound Fly CO, Pacific Fly Fishers, even Ted's. While I haven't actually purchased anything with him yet, I was really impressed with Jesse's shop and his willingness to talk shop and help. Saving a few bucks in sales tax to order online is a bummer of an excuse to make when you took advantage of someone's time like that (and the company I work for is an online fly company).
 
#21 ·
I buy some stuff on line. I have found that certain types of tying materials are not always available at the local shops. Many times, the material has been around for a long time, like Super Hair. I tie a lot of salt water flies and the original manufacturer doesn't sell it anymore. I had to go on line to find the stuff and was able to find three or four locations that continue to sell what they have or have found similar materials from different sources. Many times, cerftain colors are sold out and nobody knows when they will have more. If I go to a shop and can't find what I want, I find it somewhere else. It's simple. I spend a lot more money in the shops on other things, however and I doubt my local shop owner would say I'm giving business to someone else in lieu of him. I am an impulse shopper, however, and when I want something, I want it now; not in two weeks or a month when the next order comes in. That's when I go on line. Saving tax is okay but what you save in tax, you give back in shipping and handling so that makes no sense from an argument standpoint. There is no such thing as free shipping regardless of what is advertised.
 
#22 ·
There really is nothing wrong with buying online since many shops and small businesses (like the one I work for) are still providing jobs. I spend hours a day, even into the evening and non-existent days off "talking shop" with customers, many of which don't have a local shop. When they buy a rod and reel from me after these discussions, I'll encourage them to go to their local shop to get their line, leader, flies, waders, etc. The problem lies in the scenarios previous where someone takes the time and energy of a local shop (if they have one) to see something in person before ordering from a big box store online. No es bueno.
 
#23 ·
For the shop the bigger issue is if someone just buys on line. If a customer takes the time to come to the shop, the shop is given the opportunity to create a client. You want people to come into your shop, it gives you the chance to build business. They are taking the time to drive up, provide an experience that results in a sale. It is all on the shop, the client is showing up in person. BR
 
#24 ·
Buying online isn't just effecting small businesses such as fly shops.
Large brick and mortar store are feeling the effect as well. A prime example is Best Buys. They are struggling because their stores have become showrooms for people to try things out. So it isn't just small business that are feeling the online pinch.
I make my living in sales. Never be afraid to ask any local store if they're willing to match a price you found online for a particular item. The worst thing they can say is no.
 
#27 ·
I go into a shop for several reasons, first of which is the knowledge stashed behind the counter! If I'm looking for something they have, I'll get it at the shop, and have never been disappointed with my purchases. I value the experience and knowledge of the guys there, and you won't find that at Amazon. A combination of knowledge, products, and great service should always be a winner. Our shops are, to me, priceless resources, not to be used capriciously.
Contrast that with looking for a plane in a home depot, and getting told it's not an airport!! I had to search out someone when I couldn't find any planes-nor even some decent bench chisels; I told the kid "it's for planing wood, idiot!", and walked out.
 
#28 ·
I'll be happy when I find a fly shop that carries "salmon/shrimp pink" schlappen or saddle. Guess I will "have" to go online. Every shop with upcoming salmon season NEEDS TO CARRY every stinking shade of "pink"!!!! If someone knows...............PM me!!!! (Sample color attached)
 

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#50 ·
I'll be happy when I find a fly shop that carries "salmon/shrimp pink" schlappen or saddle. Guess I will "have" to go online. Every shop with upcoming salmon season NEEDS TO CARRY every stinking shade of "pink"!!!! If someone knows...............PM me!!!! (Sample color attached)
How's this:
 

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#29 ·
As a fly fisher who lives in a fly shop free zone, I will say you guys who still have a shop are very lucky! Do your best to support them. I always like to stop by Red's when I'm fishing the Yakima and buy some stuff. I know Red's online gives free shipping and no sales tax, and I wonder if other shops just need to follow suit on this to even the playing field with the online retailers. If I had a local shop to patronize, I doubt I would ever order fly stuff online. Rick
 
#31 ·
Video killed the radio star.

I remember when Skagit Anglers was still open. It was far more than a fly shop. It was a meeting place for fishermen. If it weren't for the shop and the people that frequented it my steelhead fly fishing learning curve would have been one steep road. Ideas were exchanged, fishing reports were given, casting help, tying help. Trips were planned. A lot of the creativity that went into the Skagit style lines and cast was done while standing around the shop talking about fishing. I remember many evenings working on line lengths and weights for new 2 handers coming out. New flies, the first Intruder I saw was one Ed brought into Skagit Anglers one afternoon years ago. Kim closed the place for two reasons; first I think he was tired of running the place and second he felt he couldn't compete with the internet.

Like others have said, if you have a local shop, support it. You will not know how much of a resource you have until it is gone.
 
#39 ·
Video killed the radio star.

I remember when Skagit Anglers was still open. It was far more than a fly shop. It was a meeting place for fishermen. If it weren't for the shop and the people that frequented it my steelhead fly fishing learning curve would have been one steep road. Ideas were exchanged, fishing reports were given, casting help, tying help. Trips were planned. A lot of the creativity that went into the Skagit style lines and cast was done while standing around the shop talking about fishing. I remember many evenings working on line lengths and weights for new 2 handers coming out. New flies, the first Intruder I saw was one Ed brought into Skagit Anglers one afternoon years ago. Kim closed the place for two reasons; first I think he was tired of running the place and second he felt he couldn't compete with the internet.

Like others have said, if you have a local shop, support it. You will not know how much of a resource you have until it is gone.
to me what you described is a club, not a shop. all the internet has done is expose inefficiencies and weaknesses in small businesses. those who can adapt and find new ways to compete will survive. if you want to have a business that behaves like a club but generates profit like a healthy business, you're going to have to make your own rules and find a way to make a profit doing something that is traditionally not profitable. i'm sure it can be done, but it would have to be done very intentionally and with a plan. just having a club where there's also a bunch of stuff available for sale at uncompetitive prices is never going to work.

btw, what you quoted is just a lyric. the person who wrote it is still getting a royalty check every six months from BMI or ASCAP for radio airplay. the radio still drives the vast majority of performance royalties earned by songwriters. the radio star is alive and well.
 
#32 ·
We used to have a fly shop here in Wenatchee, but no more.
Reason is not for the lack of flyfishers, it was for the lack of fly fishing opportunities.
All of the closed water here in the local area.
Now I like to think of myself as my own fly shop.
By searching the web I have found the best deals on rods, reels, lines, leaders, tippets, fly tying materials, clothing, boots, etc.
If I want to find out how the fishing is at some location or what flies have been working, I just ask my friends right here on WFF
I don't have to spend gas money driving to and from, and the only fly shop I drive by when coming and going from fishing is almost always closed.
I won't darken the door of the big box sporting goods stores, or there web sites, hell I don't darken the doors of any big box stores, Walmart, Costco, Kmart, etc.
I do all my shopping on line, except for food and TP.
 
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