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A Guardian Teacher Law

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9K views 151 replies 46 participants last post by  Steelheader69 
#1 ·
Please forgive me for posting a non-fishing thread, but the recent violence in Conn. has weighed heavily on my heart. I'm a teacher of 18 years and an avid fly fisherman... The members of this board represent a broad political spectrum and i wanted to bounce the following legislative idea off all of you as i believe it can relatively quickly make our schools safer (if passed). thank you

brad

Individual local school boards in Washington State should be allowed to issue "Guardian Teacher Permits." The Guardian Teacher Permit would be a concealed weapons permit + 1. The Guardian Teacher or Administrator would be allowed to carry a concealed weapon onto school grounds during their work day. The following is a basic outline of what might be included in said legislation:

1. Guardian Teachers or Administrators would be selected and approved by local school districts (built in vetting process that costs the state nothing).

2. Participation in this program would be completely optional. No school district would have to participate.

3. Guardian Teacher applications could be submitted to the state for additional background checks (which teachers have already passed).

4. Only teachers with impeccable employee record would be eligible. Guardian Status could be revoked at any time by the school board under their discretion.

5. Automatic suspension of Guardian status for any of the following: DWI, or violations of the law above or beyond a speeding ticket, and for receiving an employee reprimand.

6. Guardian teachers would be required to attend some type of training (two to four days, at employee or district cost), covering their role and responsibility as a Guardian teacher, gun safety, and pass a basic marksmanship course.

7. Guardian teachers would be under direction to keep an absolutely low profile (we don't talk about guardian teachers…." If you have questions ask the district office."

8. Only teachers/administrators with a proven record of service and professionalism would be eligible.

Rational:

1. Our schools have proven the most vulnerable targets in our society for the violence of demented minds. As a society we have no more precious treasure than our children, yet we guard armored trucks better than our schools.

2. The cost of having full time protection from police officers or trained and armed security guards is more than most districts can afford.

3. Regardless of anyone's position on gun control legislation or the passage of future gun control laws, it is likely that these acts of insanity will plague our society well into the future. A Guardian Teacher law could make our schools safer in a matter of weeks (if passed).

4. The mere knowledge that Guardian Teachers are present in a school may dissuade potential attacks.

5. There seems to be an ever increasing number of disturbed people who view our children as targets. As there are wolves in our world, let us put Guardians among the lambs.
 
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#89 ·
I can' t believe it. I am watching the news and the report is that the powers that be are now willing to discuss gun control, violent video games, and mental health issues. Someone must be reading this forum besides a bunch of overly active fly fishermen.
Or a bunch of inactive fly fishermen who aren't fishing
 
#39 ·
Dead on Reverend Roper. Disarming Americans is the worst possible outcome. I can see restrictions on certain assault style weapons, and high capacity magazines, but all guns could only lead to disaster. It's funny Japan was brought into this discussion. They were poised to invade our West coast during the peak of WWII. The only thing that made them hesitate was the amount of resistance they feared from the average American household. They envisioned every American armed, and ready to defend themselves and their country. And they would have been mostly correct. I hope that never changes. And you're right about if you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns.
 
#40 ·
I'm curious about what the gun rights folks think they've given up? The Supreme Court had thrown out nearly every attempt to regulate guns. Are you upset about not having access to full auto weapons? Grenade launchers? I'm actually really curious what the percieved "conscessions" are.

The second amendment was important when it was written. It's outdated and unrealistic. It was designed to arm the populace should the British try and retake their colonies or the federal government get out of control. It was intended to put state of the art tools of war in every household (rifles/muskets), do create a diffuse military that couldn't be easily controlled by a tyrant. Now it's more about individuals and personal protection. If we were to actually take a constructionist view of the second amendment, we would have state of the art weaponry in every household--no holds barred, and I don't think that anyone (I could be wrong) thinks that's reasonable.

I was really struck by a fact from the recent Colorado theater shootings. The only person who had any sense that there was something wrong with James Holmes was the local gun club president/range supervisor. The thing to remember is, that we are trying to keep the guns out of the hands of unstable people. It's not the guns that kill people. It's not people with normal coping skills that kill people. It's people with underdeveloped coping skills who kill people, and guns make them much more efficient killing mechanisms. I think that there is an opportunity for local organizations, I say gun clubs, to screen people for permits. If you're going to regulate this, put it in the hands of people who care about, respect and understand guns. If it had been up to the local gun club president in the Colorado case, James Holmes woudn't have been able to aquire a gun. I just think there is an opportunity to take a community based approach, we need there to be somewhere where someone can throw up a red flag and say "I'm not sure this person should have access to a weapon". Not deny a permit per-se but maybe be a stoppong point along the road to aquiring a weapon, where someone might be able to recognize a potential problem. The answer isn't a stricter ban, it's getting the community involved in preventing gun ownership by unstable people.
 
#42 ·
I kind of hate to wade into this, but I can't help myself. First let me say, I am a gun owner, shooting enthusiast, sometime hunter, etc. I have had a concealed carry permit for almost forty years and I carry quite a lot. But I don't understand why so many of my gun owning aquaintances and friends immediately jump to the idea that someone is going to come and take all their guns as soon as the words "gun control" are uttered.

"Gun control" may mean no sales without using a Federal Firearms dealer to do a sale/transfer. Or it may mean no sales to felons, or drug addicts, or mentally disturbed people. It might mean laws to require people to either have their firearms in their possession and control or locked in a safe (heaven forbid). Or it might mean no sales of fully automatic weapons (as it has in most states for many, many years), or maybe no 30 round magazines. Big deal.

What it does not mean is that someone is going to come take your guns. It isn't going to happen and the NRA needs to quit contantly trying to scare gun owners into donating more and more money to them to perpetuate this kind of thinking. The NRA milks every member as thoroughly as possible to perpetuate their business model by trying to convince people that the next step is confiscation. It's a load of crap. There is room for responsible gun owners to come to the table with Law Enforcement, mental health professionals and other concerned parties and come up with some small steps that just might keep a gun out of the hands of someone that shouldn't have one and still maintain our second amendment rights and the right to carry.

Sorry to get off topic.

As for the OP, I'd at least like to talk about the Guardian Teacher idea, or an officer in all schools, or metal detectors, there are a number of possibilities. But, here's another hot button, it's going to take some tax dollars. I for one am willing to pony up to do something to help keep my kids, your kids and our grandkids safe.
 
#43 ·
When you don't want to be the soft target, harden the target. There are many ways to affect such a change, and some mentioned here seem to have considerable merit. Safety of our children should NOT be about dollars and cents, it should be about access control and common sense.
 
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#44 ·
BACK ON THE SOAP BOX, AGAIN. There are many of us who have children in schools or family in schools. I substitute now that I am retired and my wife and daughter are full time teachers. I for one am willing to pony up the dollars. I taught in a school with a full time resource officer and he was busy all the time but you and I, so to speak, are not the only voters. I have never voted against a school bond or levy, knowing that my own kids benefited from previous thoughtful voters and that the major judge of a community is its school system. But, there are lots of people out there that refuse to recognize the value of safe and civil schools and since their own children are out, they look at bonds, levies, and taxes as someone else's burden since they have completed their duty.

We are lucky to have a forum like this and moderators that allow us to go off topic because it is current and important. Thanks to them for allowing us to vent on the Newtown incident and other things like Guardian Teachers, Gun Control, Video Games, Police protection, etc., etc. What I would admonish all of you to do is to go into your neighborhood schools for more than a few minutes and take a look around. See what is and is not happening. Get your neighbors to do the same. TAlk with the administrators and ask what you can do to help. It may be as little as slowing down in a school zone or as much as becoming a volunteer to help out a distressed child or overloaded teacher. Once you get the lay of the land, you will have a better idea of what needs to be done.

Thanks to all of you who have expressed your views and suggestions. It's a start and now we have to do better to make a viable change. God bless our children.
 
#47 ·
Here's a link to two interesting op eds from Policeone.com, a popular online resource for the law enforcement community. This is from their special report section on the Newton shooting. Both articles are in the left side bar, "Active Shooters In Schools, Should Teachers Be Trained..." and "Why Minutement Can Protect Against Active Shooters".
http://www.policeone.com/police/news-reports/6065082-Newtown-Elementary-School-Shooting

While researching federal funding resources for school security, (one would like to think our gov't would exhaust all avenues before restricting our constitutional freedoms), I found that in 2012 the feds cut funding for school security grants and allowed violence programs to lapse. In 2000 the Newton School District received $125,000 from this program that no longer exists. (Inside the article you'll find bold text, these hyperlinks lead to supporting documents from the budget)
http://www.washingtonguardian.com/washingtons-school-security-failure
 
#49 ·
This is getting out of hand. Therefore, this will be my last post on the subject. However, I would like to clarify a couple of points before I sign off.
  1. These mass killings go beyond tragic. Those who have been touched by the past events are suffering far beyond what the rest of us can imagine. To lose an innocent child, the light of your life, in such a manner is just unconscionable. I am at a loss for words, lifetime, never healing scars, forever haunted.... My heart goes out to them.
  2. What gun rights have we given up? Well, even after Heller vs. DC & McDonald vs. Illinois, You are still not allowed to possess a handgun in Chicago, or New York City. You cannot legally carry a handgun, either open or concealed, in California. There are magazine limits in Ca. The "assault weapon" ban is still on the books in Ca. There are still ten states that do not allow concealed carry. Of those not allowing concealed carry, I doubt very much you would be allowed open carry. Most states deny the sale of a handgun to those under the age of 21. You can go to war for your country. But you cannot buy a handgun. These are only the ones which I am familiar. I am sure there are many more.
  3. "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." Note the comma midway through this declaration. That comma separates the first part, which is cause for the second part. By itself, the first part is meaningless. The second part, the right of the people,,,,is capable of meaning. Note also, there is nothing establishing authority by either state or federal government to raise a militia or army of any kind. The militia, as defined at the time, consisted of every able bodied male citizen 18 years of age or older. And they were required to arm themselves at their own expense! Keep and bear arms? Keep is to possess, Bear is to carry. Arms remain undefined. Since there is no definition of what constitutes "arms", how can there be any restriction on such? What part of "infringe" do you not understand? The American hunting rifle of the day was superior to the (British) military issue smooth bore musket. It is not about hunting. Nor is it about self defense. It is a check against tyranny! It is not outdated. Nor is it unrealistic! If we are to exclude any arms not yet invented, then we must also exclude any form of free speech not yet invented.
 
#51 ·
Doesn't matter any way man. Obama was just on the news live. Biden is writing the new gun ban law as we speak and Obama is going to fast track it. If obama care is any indication... Bottom line the "american people" voted for socialism, their decision has been made. This is what socialism tastes like. :(
 
#50 ·
Thank you everyone for your insightful posts. I would like to respond generally to some of the concerns a Guardian Teacher raises among some.
Accidents: extremely unlikely, we have 10s of thousands of police officers who safely manage their fire arms every day... with a round in the chamber... 10s of thousands of CW carriers carry their guns... i'm never heard of a CW carrier's gun accidently going off. A Guardian Teacher/Administrator would not be allowed to keep a round in the chamber... load only after gun reports, or gun revieled.
Student attempts to take gun: 1st, very unlikely. 2nd, Guardian T. or Administrator uses an ankle holster... student would be in a very vulnerable position if they attempt a take'away. 3rd, this is actually a better senerio than a student returning to school with a gun... by trying to take a gun from a armed teacher the student has revealed his intentions. A student who gets a gun off campus only reveals his intentions when the shooting starts. imagine being on a plane and somebody infront of you attacks an air marshal to get their gun... what are you going to do?
School resource officer/security: Great idea... very expensive. my own school has a half time security officer in the high school. no one in the elementary. Guardian T. costs very little ($2,000) a year.
Teachers aren't trained, or ready for this type of fight: What kind of training do you need before your qualified to fight for a child's life? Teachers don't need to be members of Seal Team 6. They need three things: 1) proven gun safety discipline, 2) reasonably accuracy, 3) A gun. That's it... take the gun away... you're nothing more than another target/victim.
Fire fight leads to unintened victims: This could happen... but i'd take those odds any day over a shooter being able to carefully pick their targets as they move through a school/classroom. A fire fight waists shooters ammunition, and gives victims seconds to escape/hide/lock doors.

There have been many thoughtful responses to my original idea, many i would whole heartedly support. But, no one has offered a solution that would be as cost effective (teacher would absorb most of the costs.. i'm willing to), or immidiate as a teacher(s) who can respond withint seconds to a mass murderer. None of them can stop or interupt a shooter better than an armed protector. Let qualified, carefully selected teachers and administrators carry guns... have a layered approach to security... not a one fire wall system.
thank you
b
 
#52 ·
Thank you everyone for your insightful posts. I would like to respond generally to some of the concerns a Guardian Teacher raises among some.
Accidents: extremely unlikely, we have 10s of thousands of police officers who safely manage their fire arms every day... with a round in the chamber... 10s of thousands of CW carriers carry their guns... i'm never heard of a CW carrier's gun accidently going off. A Guardian Teacher/Administrator would not be allowed to keep a round in the chamber... load only after gun reports, or gun revieled.
Student attempts to take gun: 1st, very unlikely. 2nd, Guardian T. or Administrator uses an ankle holster... student would be in a very vulnerable position if they attempt a take'away. 3rd, this is actually a better senerio than a student returning to school with a gun... by trying to take a gun from a armed teacher the student has revealed his intentions. A student who gets a gun off campus only reveals his intentions when the shooting starts. imagine being on a plane and somebody infront of you attacks an air marshal to get their gun... what are you going to do?
School resource officer/security: Great idea... very expensive. my own school has a half time security officer in the high school. no one in the elementary. Guardian T. costs very little ($2,000) a year.
Teachers aren't trained, or ready for this type of fight: What kind of training do you need before your qualified to fight for a child's life? Teachers don't need to be members of Seal Team 6. They need three things: 1) proven gun safety discipline, 2) reasonably accuracy, 3) A gun. That's it... take the gun away... you're nothing more than another target/victim.
Fire fight leads to unintened victims: This could happen... but i'd take those odds any day over a shooter being able to carefully pick their targets as they move through a school/classroom. A fire fight waists shooters ammunition, and gives victims seconds to escape/hide/lock doors.

There have been many thoughtful responses to my original idea, many i would whole heartedly support. But, no one has offered a solution that would be as cost effective (teacher would absorb most of the costs.. i'm willing to), or immidiate as a teacher(s) who can respond withint seconds to a mass murderer. None of them can stop or interupt a shooter better than an armed protector. Let qualified, carefully selected teachers and administrators carry guns... have a layered approach to security... not a one fire wall system.
thank you
b
I would not have trusted a single teacher I've had in my life to carry in a classroom. They all snap sooner or later. Regardless they wouldn't have time to teach students properly if they recieved the proper training to handle a situation that requires an armed response anyway.

"What kind of training do you need before your qualified to fight for a child's life?" at minimum 6 months of training at around 40 - 50 hours per week and an additional 10 - 20 hpw to maintain that skillset. Leave the killing to the Pros man. They're good at what they do. All an untrained teacher is going to do is get more kids that happen to be downrange killed. One former recon or 11B could handle more with less collateral damage than an entire staff of armed teachers. For the record, they're used to being paid jack shit.
 
#54 ·
Stop it Be. Obama is no more a socialist than Bush was a fascist. And talking like that is not helpful to fixing what ails us.
Both are D'bags of the grandest scale. I'm simply stating gun controll is going to happen regardless so it's pointless arguing about it. I forgot to strap on my "don't be an asshole while posting filter" this morning. I apoligize if I offended anyone. :D
 
#57 ·
WOW, really all this banter about rights for gun owners and rights for game players? How about the rights for the innocent???
Should we not be thinking about how to best work toward less brutality as an overall goal and not one that points fingers?
Amazing first we have a kid that thanks Karate can stop a gun, then we have a kid that thinks a gun can stop a gun.
In the wrong hands it really doesn't matter which game one plays. When it intrudes on the here and now it's a problem either way.
No I don't have a solution. I'm open to a discussion though.
I don't really care if your a gun lover or a gun hater, I'd just like us to help the kids.
Tim Goeken.
 
#58 ·
Brad, I have a different concern with the Guardian Teacher approach. Reports vary for how long it took the shooter in CT to kill the 25 or so kids and adults at the school, but they range up to about 2 minutes. Assuming that the Guardian Teacher is somewhere in the school teaching, or on break, or maybe is a staff member working in a back office somewhere, most, if not all of the carnage will be over by the time the shooter is confronted by the Guardian, except in the odd chance that the shooter goes where the Guardian already is to open fire.

I prefer Lugan's suggestion that a LEO is stationed at the school. A school could/should have (and do in the few cases that I'm familiar with) a single point of entry for visitors (all other entrances should be locked and only staff have keys). With the trained LEO stationed at the point of entry, deterrence would be increased and response time decreased.

One drawback to the LEO scenario is simply the tremendous cost of having a paid professional in every school (there are a LOT of schools in this country), who would spend virtually all of their time with little active enforcement to perform (I'm an opponent of having LEOs in schools to police minor violations by juveniles). Perhaps a hybrid staff position could be co-funded by the police and school district; one with bona fide LEO training, but also with training in some aspect of school admin or communications, and who would be positioned at the point of entry, where he/she could be on call at a moment's notice to respond.

D
 
#59 ·
Brad, I have a different concern with the Guardian Teacher approach. Reports vary for how long it took the shooter in CT to kill the 25 or so kids and adults at the school, but they range up to about 2 minutes. Assuming that the Guardian Teacher is somewhere in the school teaching, or on break, or maybe is a staff member working in a back office somewhere, most, if not all of the carnage will be over by the time the shooter is confronted by the Guardian, except in the odd chance that the shooter goes where the Guardian already is to open fire.

I prefer Lugan's suggestion that a LEO is stationed at the school. A school could/should have (and do in the few cases that I'm familiar with) a single point of entry for visitors (all other entrances should be locked and only staff have keys). With the trained LEO stationed at the point of entry, deterrence would be increased and response time decreased.

One drawback to the LEO scenario is simply the tremendous cost of having a paid professional in every school (there are a LOT of schools in this country), who would spend virtually all of their time with little active enforcement to perform (I'm an opponent of having LEOs in schools to police minor violations by juveniles). Perhaps a hybrid staff position could be co-funded by the police and school district; one with bona fide LEO training, but also with training in some aspect of school admin or communications, and who would be positioned at the point of entry, where he/she could be on call at a moment's notice to respond.

D
A $40K per year + standard benifits full time position for an armed guard in an elementry school with 600 students works out to under $70.00 per year per student. Show me a parent who can not afford $5.83 per month to provide security for their kids and I'll show you someone who has no busisness having kids in the first place. Not to mention we're paying companies like Blackwater billions of dollars to guard schools in Iraq, Lybia, Israel, and asscrackastan.

Time to straighten out some priorities. Cost is not an issue here. Professional preventative security is not expensive, or intrusive.
 
#63 ·
When I was in elementary and high school, a fair number of my teachers were WWII veterans. I wouldn't have had a problem with them carrying weapons at school. Then again, it was also OK to bring shotguns (unloaded) on the school bus for after-school bird hunting. Shotguns and ammo were left in the principal's office.

Sg
 
#64 ·
When I was in elementary and high school, a fair number of my teachers were WWII veterans. I wouldn't have had a problem with them carrying weapons at school. Then again, it was also OK to bring shotguns (unloaded) on the school bus for after-school bird hunting. Shotguns and ammo were left in the principal's office.

Sg
When I was in high school, Someone peleted the French teacher in the back of the head with spit balls daily. During the last quarter of the school year, the teacher finally caught him, snapped, and threw him through a plate glass window. That was in the 80's. It's worse now. Teachers have it a lot tougher than they did back in the day man. Anyone who has the stones to be a teacher these days should be anointed as a saint....An unarmed saint.
 
#66 ·
Be, you might have a very good point. You make me remember a few times in my childhood when teachers blew up at kids (worst one was when my 7th grade science teacher picked a kid up while he was sitting in his little desk and threw him though the doorway and across the hall, smashing into the bank of lockers there). Maybe we keep teachers teaching, and let the armed security be handled by specialists. Gonna be expensive though.

If we had cops or other armed protection at every school, would that just shift madmen to other soft targets like movie theaters, restaurants, buses, churches, etc? Don't get me wrong - there is good in eliminating schools from the soft target list, but we need to be aware of the unintended consequences.
 
#67 ·
How do you stop a shooter, once he is already at your school??????

Seems nobody wants to answer this question.

Its one of those stories, where the sheep are preyed upon by the wolf. so a sheepdog arrives to watch over the sheep, but despite the sheepdogs ability and willingness to standup to the wolf, and stop the wolf, the sheep always fear and distrust the sheepdog, because the sheepdog looks like the wolf, and can do as much damage as the wolf.
 
#68 ·
How do you stop a shooter, once he is already at your school??????

Seems nobody wants to answer this question.

Its one of those stories, where the sheep are preyed upon by the wolf. so a sheepdog arrives to watch over the sheep, but despite the sheepdogs ability and willingness to standup to the wolf, and stop the wolf, the sheep always fear and distrust the sheepdog, because the sheepdog looks like the wolf, and can do as much damage as the wolf.
lol. i've been saying for years that there is a market for bionic, genetically engineered weiner dogs. One minute they look ilke a ballpark frank getting carried off by ants next thing you know they're kicking some wolf ass Steve Austin style. No ones afraid of weiner dogs. It's the perfect cover. :D
 
#69 ·
Nobody is serious about banning all guns. Not even ******* liberals.

But many people don't see a legitimate reason that anyone needs to possess high powered assault weapons that are capable of firing repeatably without reloading.

Outside of the military, why does anyone need one of these?

They just seems to make it too easy to kill a lot of people.

Constitutional rights are not absolute. For example the 1st amendment right to free speech doesn't protect statements that provoke violence or incite illegal action.

Can't we find the same kind of middle ground for gun possession?
 
#70 ·
What a good idea, make teachers into bodyguards with a two day class. I spent three years in the marines, 13 months in heavy combat that featured lots of small arms fire. These kids were given a hell of a lot more training than you're talking about here, and maybe half can do what's expected of them the first couple of times.

I have a reality gram and a question for all you Dirty Harry clones
1. Paper targets don't make your hands shake. Loud noises and an armed enemy do.
2. So how's that geography teacher going to feel about things after taking out a couple of students getting snapped in?
 
#71 ·
I know one former member of SEAL Team 6 who'd be happy to advise on the process of changing, as Ed suggests, a school into a hard target. It's not difficult. And I've not met many cops who could hit their own asses in a snowstorm with their service weapons. A few, yes, but certainly not a majority. You want to stop this violence, stop the whack-jobs. Lock these anti-social bastards up. Hell, help battle global warming-hang `em on national TV.

And no, Codswallorer, there IS no middle ground on gun possession because there's no reasonableness on the side of the banners. Hell, even my fucking biathlon rifle's considered an "assault weapon" in California. It has easily-detachable mags and a pistol-grip stock and carries-OMG!!!-twenty rounds of .22 target ammo! There is NO reasonableness involved here. Now, if a discussion were actually serious, the first paragraph would contain something about doing away with the HIPPA horseshit regarding mental health issues.
 
#99 ·
You want to stop this violence, stop the whack-jobs. Lock these anti-social bastards up. Hell, help battle global warming-hang `em on national TV.

And no, Codswallorer, there IS no middle ground on gun possession because there's no reasonableness on the side of the banners.

Incongruity
 
#74 ·
"You want to stop this violence, stop the whack-jobs. Lock these anti-social bastards up."

Is it antisocial to bill yourself as "The meanest S.O.B in the valley"?
I'm as antisocial as any other SEAL Team member (we have two here, one from Team 6 and me, from Team 1), and still fully capable of taking out a target at 1207 yards, or "up close & personal". Mean in this context means I don't aim for center mass. And living in a tourist town, I don't like the fucking tourists-no place left to park!
 
#75 ·
Given the choice of home schooling, soft target schooling or hard target schooling, I know which I prefer.

Schools are gun free zones, kids have little control of where and if they go. Someone has to look out after them.

One armed person in a school has another name than school resource officer...first target. That solution is a bad bandaid at best. A multilayered approach should encompass many elements that should mitigate the risk.
 
#76 ·
"One armed person in a school has another name than school resource officer...first target. That solution is a bad bandaid at best."

I disagree. Large high schools have a community the size of a small town, and their assigned officers are useful parts of their community, just as officers are useful parts of any community. They do much, much more than serve as first targets, including building productive, inspiring relationships with some students.

In addition, if an attacker were to focus on taking out a school resource officer, that would lead others to call 911 and would get help onsite sooner.
 
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