Are overweight lines getting out of control?

Porter

Active Member
I have no doubt that he worked with Burkheimer. I question his statement that he helped design the rods. A better understanding of fly lines would be required for truly designing a fly rod. His comments on this thread as well as many others demonstrate a lack of understanding.

I’m not looking to fight with anyone on here. If Rob decides to try to tell me things that aren’t true, I will correct him. I’ve spent too much time in the fly fishing industry to let someone bs me.
As well as many others.... dang did you have to include me too? :p Might be true but I do know a thing or two. I respect your credentials and dang Good job Matt! :) You were hanging with the big guns !!! The thing about some fly rods you just can’t explain...they just feel good to you and so many different fly rods feel different to so many. There’s no best fly rod on the planet there just the best Fly rod for you. But dang the search is fun to find it. Hehe.
 
[QUOTE="Rob Allen, post: 1488987, member: 8104" For anglers wanting a deeper loading feel out of it you can put a 7wt line on it.
.[/QUOTE]


Do you not see the irony of your own posts?

Your statement above can be applied to ANY fly rod on the market. If I want my Scott Meridian 6 wt to have a "deeper loading feel" I can put a 7 wt line on it as well. Though according to you, since this isn't a Burkie which is the greatest rod on the planet, this would be abusing it. Good grief.
 
buy a double taper and learn how to cast beyond the length of the head.
So let's do some math here. You are saying that people should learn to cast the entire fly line of a double taper. We'll assume that the double taper is a 5 weight standard AFTMA grain weight of 140 grains for the first 30 feet. Double taper lines in a 5 weight are typically 90 feet long, including the Cortland 444 Peach, which seems to be your favorite line. If someone was to learn to cast this line "beyond the length of the head," the weight of that amount of line would be approximately 330 grains - the same as the AFTMA standard for an 11 weight. If we assume that the caster shoots 30 feet of line on their last cast (not easy to do with a double taper), they would have to be carrying 60' of line in the air before that final cast - equaling 210 grains - or the AFTMA standard for an 8 weight line.

So at a minimum, your advice quoted above, overlines the rod by 3 weights.

Let's compare that to a RIO Grand, which is probably the most popular over weighted line out there. A 5 weight RIO Grand is 160 grains at 30' - the AFTMA standard of a 6 weight. The entire head of this line is 38' with a total weight of 195 grains. Since you can't carry more than the length of the head for more than one false cast (running line doesn't have enough mass to effectively move the head, so you can only shoot line on your final back cast and your final forward cast), the most weight you are carrying in the air during your casting with this line is 195 grains - equivalent to a 7.5 weight AFTMA standard.

Your advice is to make the rod carry more weight with a double taper than is even possible to carry with one of these evil, rod abusing, over weighted lines. At best, you're telling people (with the direct quote above) to over line the rod by 15 grains more (half a line weight more) than a line that starts out being a full line weight heavier than the AFTMA standard.
 
[QUOTE="Rob Allen, post: 1488987, member: 8104" For anglers wanting a deeper loading feel out of it you can put a 7wt line on it.
.

Do you not see the irony of your own posts?

Your statement above can be applied to ANY fly rod on the market. If I want my Scott Meridian 6 wt to have a "deeper loading feel" I can put a 7 wt line on it as well. Though according to you, since this isn't a Burkie which is the greatest rod on the planet, this would be abusing it. Good grief.[/QUOTE]

Good job of listening.
 
So let's do some math here. You are saying that people should learn to cast the entire fly line of a double taper. We'll assume that the double taper is a 5 weight standard AFTMA grain weight of 140 grains for the first 30 feet. Double taper lines in a 5 weight are typically 90 feet long, including the Cortland 444 Peach, which seems to be your favorite line. If someone was to learn to cast this line "beyond the length of the head," the weight of that amount of line would be approximately 330 grains - the same as the AFTMA standard for an 11 weight. If we assume that the caster shoots 30 feet of line on their last cast (not easy to do with a double taper), they would have to be carrying 60' of line in the air before that final cast - equaling 210 grains - or the AFTMA standard for an 8 weight line.

So at a minimum, your advice quoted above, overlines the rod by 3 weights.

Let's compare that to a RIO Grand, which is probably the most popular over weighted line out there. A 5 weight RIO Grand is 160 grains at 30' - the AFTMA standard of a 6 weight. The entire head of this line is 38' with a total weight of 195 grains. Since you can't carry more than the length of the head for more than one false cast (running line doesn't have enough mass to effectively move the head, so you can only shoot line on your final back cast and your final forward cast), the most weight you are carrying in the air during your casting with this line is 195 grains - equivalent to a 7.5 weight AFTMA standard.

Your advice is to make the rod carry more weight with a double taper than is even possible to carry with one of these evil, rod abusing, over weighted lines. At best, you're telling people (with the direct quote above) to over line the rod by 15 grains more (half a line weight more) than a line that starts out being a full line weight heavier than the AFTMA standard.

Asked and answered many times now.
 
So let's do some math here. You are saying that people should learn to cast the entire fly line of a double taper. We'll assume that the double taper is a 5 weight standard AFTMA grain weight of 140 grains for the first 30 feet. Double taper lines in a 5 weight are typically 90 feet long, including the Cortland 444 Peach, which seems to be your favorite line. If someone was to learn to cast this line "beyond the length of the head," the weight of that amount of line would be approximately 330 grains - the same as the AFTMA standard for an 11 weight. If we assume that the caster shoots 30 feet of line on their last cast (not easy to do with a double taper), they would have to be carrying 60' of line in the air before that final cast - equaling 210 grains - or the AFTMA standard for an 8 weight line.

So at a minimum, your advice quoted above, overlines the rod by 3 weights.

Let's compare that to a RIO Grand, which is probably the most popular over weighted line out there. A 5 weight RIO Grand is 160 grains at 30' - the AFTMA standard of a 6 weight. The entire head of this line is 38' with a total weight of 195 grains. Since you can't carry more than the length of the head for more than one false cast (running line doesn't have enough mass to effectively move the head, so you can only shoot line on your final back cast and your final forward cast), the most weight you are carrying in the air during your casting with this line is 195 grains - equivalent to a 7.5 weight AFTMA standard.

Your advice is to make the rod carry more weight with a double taper than is even possible to carry with one of these evil, rod abusing, over weighted lines. At best, you're telling people (with the direct quote above) to over line the rod by 15 grains more (half a line weight more) than a line that starts out being a full line weight heavier than the AFTMA standard.

Casting casting 30 feet of double taper and shooting another 30 is simple.. casting 50 feet of double taper and shooting another 30 also easy. Super easy.

Again see my previous posts.. cause you are not listening your speeding right past my point..
 
Casting casting 30 feet of double taper and shooting another 30 is simple.. casting 50 feet of double taper and shooting another 30 also easy. Super easy.

Again see my previous posts.. cause you are not listening your speeding right past my point..
Prove it. Post a video of you carrying 30 feet of double taper line and shooting it out to 60 feet. I’ll donate $100 to the charity of your choice if you can.

That means you cannot let out any line until your final forward cast. Carry 30 feet as many false casts as you want then on the final forward cast, shoot out to 60.

There’s no way you can perform that cast.
 
It means it's intended to do the job of a 6 wt. It's constructed like a 6 wt AKA a medium weight trout rod. It's peak performance is with a 6 wt line. For anglers wanting a deeper loading feel out of it you can put a 7wt line on it.

It is however not a 7wt. It's not a medium heavy trout rod. Would be a good rod for say a stonefly hatch, medium trout nymphing
Streamers up to size 2 with moderate weight.

Hmm just like a 6wt should be.

If it's more than 3 1/2 years old i built the blank.
Wait, so now you’re saying exactly what we’ve been saying...you can adjust line weight to match casting and fishing preferences. I don’t think anyone is trying to say a heavy line makes a 5wt a 7wt rod. You’re the one who started that straw man in this thread. You started this whole mess saying shooting heads are just a crutch for bad casters. I disagree. I can take my 8wt to the beach with a standard salmon clouser and it will be much more efficient and enjoyable to cast all day with a shooting head line than with a double taper line. The shooting head might be “over weight” by 2-3 line sizes per the old standard, but the intent is to make casting more efficient - roll cast head, one back cast, shoot. That’s it. I’m not trying to make my 8wt a 10wt. No one is saying that.

I’d also point out that the average fly fisherman is also an average caster. So yeah, these lines can help them achieve greater distances, maybe catch more fish, and have more fun. Which leads to fishing more and buying more stuff (and maybe even becoming better casters). I can’t blame the line makers or fishermen for wanting that. I guess I’m not so elitist to think that people need to earn the right to be able to cast as far as you can with your double taper weight matched line.
 
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can't we all at least agree that we're all assholes?










probably not...


The biggest problem I've always had in any of this, are the rigidity and belief that one particular method/materials are THE BEST for everyone....well, ok, it may THE BEST for you, but not 95% of other people. Hell, what works great for me may not work for even 99% of other people...thankfully, I don't really care.
 
View attachment 91120
View attachment 91121

Above is a chart for the Rio Outbound, and the second chart is the AFFTA approved weights. I am looking for a line for my Sage, and was questioning how far out of spec many lines are from MOST manufacturers, not just Rio.
Now I know it's wise go up or down a size as needed to adjust for gear and conditions, but look at the above for a minute. I know Outbounds are meant to shoot and not cast, BUT the Rio is 50% heavier than the spec. I think a few years ago, all the rage was to go a line weight or 2 heavier, and the manufacturers jumped on that by implying you could cast farther that way. This might be true for shooting line out, but for casting it's a different story.
Lets say I bite on the marketing, and need a new 5 wt line. I buy a 6 to put a heavy load on a 5 wt because that's the trend...I wind up with a 240 grain (6 wt) on a 5 manufactured for a 140 grain.

Kreh has a great article on flexibility in adjusting equipment,
http://www.scientificanglers.com/pl...s/how-choose-right-fly-line-weight-lefty-kreh
but how much is too much on marketing lines SO FAR out of spec? Kreh says you might even go 2 line sizes heavier if needed, which could waste my $80 by purchasing a 275 grain, 7 wt Outbound line on my 5 wt that was supposedly designed for 140 grains.

Seems trivial now that I type it, but I think the standard needs to be reeled back in line with spec, or why have the spec in the first place.

Rant over....
View attachment 91120
View attachment 91121

Above is a chart for the Rio Outbound, and the second chart is the AFFTA approved weights. I am looking for a line for my Sage, and was questioning how far out of spec many lines are from MOST manufacturers, not just Rio.
Now I know it's wise go up or down a size as needed to adjust for gear and conditions, but look at the above for a minute. I know Outbounds are meant to shoot and not cast, BUT the Rio is 50% heavier than the spec. I think a few years ago, all the rage was to go a line weight or 2 heavier, and the manufacturers jumped on that by implying you could cast farther that way. This might be true for shooting line out, but for casting it's a different story.
Lets say I bite on the marketing, and need a new 5 wt line. I buy a 6 to put a heavy load on a 5 wt because that's the trend...I wind up with a 240 grain (6 wt) on a 5 manufactured for a 140 grain.

Kreh has a great article on flexibility in adjusting equipment,
http://www.scientificanglers.com/pl...s/how-choose-right-fly-line-weight-lefty-kreh
but how much is too much on marketing lines SO FAR out of spec? Kreh says you might even go 2 line sizes heavier if needed, which could waste my $80 by purchasing a 275 grain, 7 wt Outbound line on my 5 wt that was supposedly designed for 140 grains.

Seems trivial now that I type it, but I think the standard needs to be reeled back in line with spec, or why have the spec in the first place.

Rant over....
Mr . Marklarson- - - - My head hurts after reading the expert’s response that may have strayed from your original post. I can not see were you have re-entered the conversation.
I would agree that over weight lines may be used by folks or poorly communicated by manufactures. Example: In the past I used 280 gr. of 30 ft. Shooting Head as specified for a 10 wt. SH Orvis graphite fly rod. Using one size up ( 11 wt.) a 330 weight, I could over hand shoot more mono running line for distance. Using 400 gr. as recommended by a manufacturer, the rod was clearly over loaded carrying 30 ft., gave extremely “clunky” performance & strain on the tip section. Similar Example: With my 8 wt. DH Skagit 8143 fly rod 25 ft. of approximate 570 gr. Head & 10 ft. of T-14 as specified, it under hand casts nicely. A 29 ft. of 680 gr. Head also works, but with more than that I feel the tip staining. Yes, one should be careful not to over load & watch what line folks recommend. I do find my 8 wt. Spey rod to be considerably “stronger” than my 10 wt. SH rod when it comes to handling steelhead & salmon. When it comes to being a “good” fly caster, in the past it was said to practice with a DT fly line and that very good casters could carry a full line. Unfortunately, I have never been able to cast any were near a full fly line, but that’s O.K. by me.
 

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