Are overweight lines getting out of control?

You are calling lines overweight because the total weight of the head is more than the AFTMA standard. That shows your lack of knowledge, Rob. AFTMA is a weight for the first 30 feet of line, regardless of head length or taper. The only exception to this is Spey, which is a lot more complicated. You’ll notice that even Spey lines have different AFTMA weights depending on the type of line or head (https://www.affta.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/spey_line_weights.pdf).

Here’s the standard weight chart for reference https://www.affta.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/fly_line_weight_specs.pdf

Again you didn't listen to a word i said.
What i am calling abuse as if it wasn't clear by my sex dungeon example. Is people abusing their rods by using heavier lines for the purpose of using flies that are too big for the rod. It doesn't matter that the rod will do it it matters if the rod is built to do that and the end user is clueless as to how the rod is constucted.

Here is another example, an extreme one.

Competition spey rods manufacturer builds a rod for a 1000 grain line. The caster can cast further if he bumps the line to 1200 grains and it casts really far and really good but he starts breaking sections.

Wanna frame a house with ball pern hammer? No of course not. Anyone attempting to frame a house with such a hammer is gonna break something.

If you want to fish a 5 inch bulky streamer with lead eyes a long distance an 8 or 9 weight is the proper tool not a 5 wt and a rio outbound.
 
this is partly true. a typical modern fast action 5 wt may cast better with the grains of a 7 wt line but it is not structurally sound as used as a 7 wt rod.
for instance just because a modern 5 wt casts a wf 7 perfectly does not mean it has enough graphite strength in it to use it as say a summer steelhead rod.

there is a big difference between what line a rod casts and the job it is able to do.

you see this in spey rods especially. guys will say my 12' 6 wt throws my intruder and sink tip just fine on a skagit head but there isn't a 6 wt spey rod on the market that should be used for winter steelhead. NO MATTER WHO YOU ARE.
This also contradicts your current argument that whether the rod can cast the fly or not is all that matters.
 
I plan on fishing for tiger musky using an 8wt epic, or maybe a 9wt. Scott, both should be abel to handle the fish as they are still well under 20lb fish at this particular resevoir.
From this thread I've pieced together that it might be easier casting the epic all day although its a heavier rod because the stroke is slower even though i doubt it would score a lower swing wieght score in any test than the faster action scott.
I also learned that using a heavier line on whichever of the rods i use is going to help me throw the the big flies because wind resistance is wind resistance, whether its weather or feathers and rabbit fur.
 
I plan on fishing for tiger musky using an 8wt epic, or maybe a 9wt. Scott, both should be abel to handle the fish as they are still well under 20lb fish at this particular resevoir.
From this thread I've pieced together that it might be easier casting the epic all day although its a heavier rod because the stroke is slower even though i doubt it would score a lower swing wieght score in any test than the faster action scott.
I also learned that using a heavier line on whichever of the rods i use is going to help me throw the the big flies because wind resistance is wind resistance, whether its weather or feathers and rabbit fur.
It’s not just the weight of the line that matters, but where the weight is distributed in the line. I’ll provide a better explanation after I get my kids to bed.
 
Rob, if you're still out there, I love my burkheimer 9ft 6wt classic. I cast it for about 5 minutes and went and listed my 6wt zenith, and recently got a 691 sage one that i was really impressed with and super light in hand but it strained my elbow to get it to perform well.
The burk is a pleasure on every level except maybe the looong cast which I fail at consistently with any rod. I also agree cortland 444 is a great fly line.
 
Rob, if you're still out there, I love my burkheimer 9ft 6wt classic. I cast it for about 5 minutes and went and listed my 6wt zenith, and recently got a 691 sage one that i was really impressed with and super light in hand but it strained my elbow to get it to perform well.
The burk is a pleasure on every level except maybe the looong cast which I fail at consistently with any rod. I also agree cortland 444 is a great fly line.

Glad you like the 690. It is my opinion that if you want to learn to cast far well get a double taper and learn to carry line in the air. It's much more efficient to carry 50 feet of line and shoot to more than to carry 30 feet and shoot another 40.

Also you'll find your loop will be more stable if you minimize the amount of you haul into your back cast and try to release it onnthe forward cast only. That's something i struggle with cause it feels so good to shoot it into thr back cast.
Good luck.
 
Glad you like the 690. It is my opinion that if you want to learn to cast far well get a double taper and learn to carry line in the air. It's much more efficient to carry 50 feet of line and shoot to more than to carry 30 feet and shoot another 40.

Also you'll find your loop will be more stable if you minimize the amount of you haul into your back cast and try to release it onnthe forward cast only. That's something i struggle with cause it feels so good to shoot it into thr back cast.
Good luck.
I will give your advice a try, I've just learned to release line on my back cast after the haul. I'm at say 60 ft. Of line in the air and shooting 15 but it's the shooting that usually makes it a shitty cast that more falls than unfurls. My biggest problem is the stop and shooting at high enough point to carry the cast to the 80, 90, or 100, ft. range. My crappy technique works great at 65ft. and under though, even with a 4wt.
 
I plan on fishing for tiger musky using an 8wt epic, or maybe a 9wt. Scott, both should be abel to handle the fish as they are still well under 20lb fish at this particular resevoir.
From this thread I've pieced together that it might be easier casting the epic all day although its a heavier rod because the stroke is slower even though i doubt it would score a lower swing wieght score in any test than the faster action scott.
I also learned that using a heavier line on whichever of the rods i use is going to help me throw the the big flies because wind resistance is wind resistance, whether its weather or feathers and rabbit fur.
Kids in bed, do you want to discuss this?
 
Sure, my guess is that the with the wind resistance you need the weight forwad to load right away, I've used a technique when I have water behind me to let the big fly hit the water to load the line or just in front when wading near the shore.
Water loading is a useful technique with big heavy flies. Since this thread is based on fly lines, I wanted to give an example for why some specific lines are made the way they are, that can be easily misunderstood as "overlining" the rod. Muskie fishing provides a perfect example of how weight distribution in the line changes everything about how it casts, even if the total weight of the entire line is the same. There are also different means of achieving similar behavior with the line depending on a variety of factors. To illustrate this, I'll cover some different characteristics common today, starting from the leader end of the line and working back. I found a chart online that covers everything I'm going to say quite well, but I'll chop it up a little before providing the whole thing and a link to the site it came from at the end.

Screen Shot 2019-04-15 at 10.08.44 PM.png
Here are the basic terms used to describe a weight forward fly line. The Head consists of the front taper, body, and back (or rear) taper. The running line is level and a thinner diameter to allow for shooting.

For big bulky flies specifically, a short front taper is ideal. The reason for this is because the rapid shrinking at the front of the line speeds up the remaining line. This is good for big heavy flies, because it forces them to "turn over," or land farther out at the end of the leader instead of collapsing in a pile of line and leader at the end of your casts. You wouldn't want a short front taper for dry fly fishing over spooky trout, because it tends to slam the fly down pretty hard on the water. Here's a chart showing some of the various front tapers to help make it easier to understand:
Screen Shot 2019-04-15 at 10.18.27 PM.png
Keep in mind, these tapers are for floating lines primarily - I'm not going to address sink tips in this post. The top 3 front tapers represent more traditional fly line designs, while the bottom two show a couple common designs for specialty lines today. Muskie fishing is definitely specialized, and often there are compound front tapers and compound bodies used in the design of the head. There are two tapers above that are most compatible with muskie fishing. 2nd from the top, and the bottom.

Next comes the body and rear taper which really aren't shown as well as I'd like them to be for muskie lines, but we can look at them briefly:
Screen Shot 2019-04-15 at 10.28.11 PM.png
Your best bet here is a weight forward or shooting head taper (profile). I don't think there's a double taper line on the market with a short taper at the front. True triangle tapers are wonderful, smooth casting lines - especially when you really get your fundamentals dialed in - for dries and lighter nymphing.

Let's look at a couple muskie and big-fly specific lines though. Screen Shot 2019-04-15 at 10.34.31 PM.png
Above is the SA Mastery Titan taper diagram. This line is a compound body (they use the term "belly") line. It has a 33.5 foot head length with most of the weight on the front end combined with a 5' long front taper. I don't own this line, but I can tell that it is made to cast big flies with little/no false casting and your distance will all be achieved by shooting line. Trying to carry 60 feet of line in the air false casting more than once would not work with this line. Picking it up, one false cast in the front, shoot some line in the back, then let it fly would be the perfect situation for this line.
Screen Shot 2019-04-15 at 10.44.48 PM.png
This next taper is a RIO InTouch Big Nasty. You'll see some similarities, and some important differences. Front taper is the same at 5 feet. The front body on this line is 5 feet (1/2 of the front body from the SA example above) making it shorter and heavier which tells me that this line will really turn over hard. The rear body is 4 feet longer than the SA line and the rear taper is 6 feet long opposed to 2. This is still a shorter head at 40 feet total length, but it will allow you to false cast more and also carry more line in the air while casting.

I hope that this illustrates how important it is to learn how the different components of a fly line will combine to perform a specific action. This just scratches the surface of fly line tapers and what they do. I need to get to bed now, though. Below is the full diagram that I used earlier as well as a link to the site where I got it from.
Fly-lines.jpg
http://atlasfishing.blogspot.com/2015/01/fly-line-characteristics-basics-of-build.html
 
Water loading is a useful technique with big heavy flies. Since this thread is based on fly lines, I wanted to give an example for why some specific lines are made the way they are, that can be easily misunderstood as "overlining" the rod. Muskie fishing provides a perfect example of how weight distribution in the line changes everything about how it casts, even if the total weight of the entire line is the same. There are also different means of achieving similar behavior with the line depending on a variety of factors. To illustrate this, I'll cover some different characteristics common today, starting from the leader end of the line and working back. I found a chart online that covers everything I'm going to say quite well, but I'll chop it up a little before providing the whole thing and a link to the site it came from at the end.

View attachment 199684
Here are the basic terms used to describe a weight forward fly line. The Head consists of the front taper, body, and back (or rear) taper. The running line is level and a thinner diameter to allow for shooting.

For big bulky flies specifically, a short front taper is ideal. The reason for this is because the rapid shrinking at the front of the line speeds up the remaining line. This is good for big heavy flies, because it forces them to "turn over," or land farther out at the end of the leader instead of collapsing in a pile of line and leader at the end of your casts. You wouldn't want a short front taper for dry fly fishing over spooky trout, because it tends to slam the fly down pretty hard on the water. Here's a chart showing some of the various front tapers to help make it easier to understand:
View attachment 199685
Keep in mind, these tapers are for floating lines primarily - I'm not going to address sink tips in this post. The top 3 front tapers represent more traditional fly line designs, while the bottom two show a couple common designs for specialty lines today. Muskie fishing is definitely specialized, and often there are compound front tapers and compound bodies used in the design of the head. There are two tapers above that are most compatible with muskie fishing. 2nd from the top, and the bottom.

Next comes the body and rear taper which really aren't shown as well as I'd like them to be for muskie lines, but we can look at them briefly:
View attachment 199686
Your best bet here is a weight forward or shooting head taper (profile). I don't think there's a double taper line on the market with a short taper at the front. True triangle tapers are wonderful, smooth casting lines - especially when you really get your fundamentals dialed in - for dries and lighter nymphing.

Let's look at a couple muskie and big-fly specific lines though. View attachment 199687
Above is the SA Mastery Titan taper diagram. This line is a compound body (they use the term "belly") line. It has a 33.5 foot head length with most of the weight on the front end combined with a 5' long front taper. I don't own this line, but I can tell that it is made to cast big flies with little/no false casting and your distance will all be achieved by shooting line. Trying to carry 60 feet of line in the air false casting more than once would not work with this line. Picking it up, one false cast in the front, shoot some line in the back, then let it fly would be the perfect situation for this line.
View attachment 199688
This next taper is a RIO InTouch Big Nasty. You'll see some similarities, and some important differences. Front taper is the same at 5 feet. The front body on this line is 5 feet (1/2 of the front body from the SA example above) making it shorter and heavier which tells me that this line will really turn over hard. The rear body is 4 feet longer than the SA line and the rear taper is 6 feet long opposed to 2. This is still a shorter head at 40 feet total length, but it will allow you to false cast more and also carry more line in the air while casting.

I hope that this illustrates how important it is to learn how the different components of a fly line will combine to perform a specific action. This just scratches the surface of fly line tapers and what they do. I need to get to bed now, though. Below is the full diagram that I used earlier as well as a link to the site where I got it from.
View attachment 199689
http://atlasfishing.blogspot.com/2015/01/fly-line-characteristics-basics-of-build.html
Thanks, it does make sense. Especially the shorter heavey head being able to turn over. The heads mass is neccessary to pull that heavy/slow streamer out and over.
 

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