Are overweight lines getting out of control?

Jake Watrous

(not really a sea otter)
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Above is a chart for the Rio Outbound, and the second chart is the AFFTA approved weights. I am looking for a line for my Sage, and was questioning how far out of spec many lines are from MOST manufacturers, not just Rio.
Now I know it's wise go up or down a size as needed to adjust for gear and conditions, but look at the above for a minute. I know Outbounds are meant to shoot and not cast, BUT the Rio is 50% heavier than the spec. I think a few years ago, all the rage was to go a line weight or 2 heavier, and the manufacturers jumped on that by implying you could cast farther that way. This might be true for shooting line out, but for casting it's a different story.
Lets say I bite on the marketing, and need a new 5 wt line. I buy a 6 to put a heavy load on a 5 wt because that's the trend...I wind up with a 240 grain (6 wt) on a 5 manufactured for a 140 grain.

Kreh has a great article on flexibility in adjusting equipment,
http://www.scientificanglers.com/pl...s/how-choose-right-fly-line-weight-lefty-kreh
but how much is too much on marketing lines SO FAR out of spec? Kreh says you might even go 2 line sizes heavier if needed, which could waste my $80 by purchasing a 275 grain, 7 wt Outbound line on my 5 wt that was supposedly designed for 140 grains.

Seems trivial now that I type it, but I think the standard needs to be reeled back in line with spec, or why have the spec in the first place.

Rant over....
The standards are irrelevant these days. Here's a couple of reasons why:

1. 30' was chosen back in a time when most lines had shooting heads under 30'. I can't think of a single line made nowadays with a head smaller than 30'. I don't think this is a bad thing. Heads are now tailored to specific line uses. It'd be like trying to hold construction workers' tools to the standards used in the 1800s, or construction practices to those common back then. What is now common and important did not exist or was impossible when the original "standards" were made. Which brings me to #2.

2. Only measuring the weight of fly line is no longer very useful. When the "standards" were created, tapers were impossible. Today's lines have very specific tapers designed for very specific line uses. Weight tells you nothing about the taper, which is why so many line boxes have a diagram of the taper on the back.
 
The standards are irrelevant these days. Here's a couple of reasons why:

1. 30' was chosen back in a time when most lines had shooting heads under 30'. I can't think of a single line made nowadays with a head smaller than 30'. I don't think this is a bad thing. Heads are now tailored to specific line uses. It'd be like trying to hold construction workers' tools to the standards used in the 1800s, or construction practices to those common back then. What is now common and important did not exist or was impossible when the original "standards" were made. Which brings me to #2.

2. Only measuring the weight of fly line is no longer very useful. When the "standards" were created, tapers were impossible. Today's lines have very specific tapers designed for very specific line uses. Weight tells you nothing about the taper, which is why so many line boxes have a diagram of the taper on the back.
1. Except houses had higher quality construction back in the 1800s.
2. This is great but it encourages people to use their rods in ways they are not designed for.
 

Jake Watrous

(not really a sea otter)
1. Except houses had higher quality construction back in the 1800s.
2. This is great but it encourages people to use their rods in ways they are not designed for.
1. I don't know what metrics you're using, but in terms of insulation, fire safety, and earthquake preparedness, in my opinion, an argument could be made that modern buildings in the U.S. are better off than most buildings from the 1800s. For examples I hold up Seattle in the 1889 and San Francisco in 1851 and 1906.

2. I really have a hard time believing that line manufacturers are ignoring current rod designs, and that modern rod designs aren't built with modern line design (i.e. lines with heavy heads and modern tapers) in mind. As for people using their rods for things they aren't designed for, that's really up to the person doing something their rod isn't made to do--it's got little to do with outdated AFFTA standards.
 
1. I don't know what metrics you're using, but in terms of insulation, fire safety, and earthquake preparedness, in my opinion, an argument could be made that modern buildings in the U.S. are better off than most buildings from the 1800s. For examples I hold up Seattle in the 1889 and San Francisco in 1851 and 1906.

2. I really have a hard time believing that line manufacturers are ignoring current rod designs, and that modern rod designs aren't built with modern line design (i.e. lines with heavy heads and modern tapers) in mind. As for people using their rods for things they aren't designed for, that's really up to the person doing something their rod isn't made to do--it's got little to do with outdated AFFTA standards.
1. Yeah except walls aren't plumb, cabinets are made of crap materials.
All the top soil isctaken away, so from a craftsman perspective modern homes are crap.. actually this is a really good analogy
Because modern technology allows unskilled labor to do the work of a skilled tradesmen from earlier times. They do crap work and achieve a goid result. Same with modern lines it allows unskilled anglers to accomplish what took skill 20 years ago.

2. Yeah that's fine until that person breaks their 5 wt trying to do the job of an 8wt and expects the manufacturer to fix it for free.
 
1. I don't know what metrics you're using, but in terms of insulation, fire safety, and earthquake preparedness, in my opinion, an argument could be made that modern buildings in the U.S. are better off than most buildings from the 1800s. For examples I hold up Seattle in the 1889 and San Francisco in 1851 and 1906.

2. I really have a hard time believing that line manufacturers are ignoring current rod designs, and that modern rod designs aren't built with modern line design (i.e. lines with heavy heads and modern tapers) in mind. As for people using their rods for things they aren't designed for, that's really up to the person doing something their rod isn't made to do--it's got little to do with outdated AFFTA standards.
You’re in the vortex. I find myself in the vortex way too often. Trying to resist jumping back in
 
You’re in the vortex. I find myself in the vortex way too often. Trying to resist jumping back in
Sorry some people carry as much about the craft as the outcome.

" if my farher had his way no one who didn't know how to catch a fish would be allowed to disgrace a fish by catching it"
 
Sorry some people carry as much about the craft as the outcome.

" if my farher had his way no one who didn't know how to catch a fish would be allowed to disgrace a fish by catching it"
I placed 6th in the 2009 & 2010 Orvis National Casting Competition (accuracy & distance elements built into the casting course in Bend). I’m a FFI certified instructor who’s taught over 1,000 students how to cast and fish. I guided for 20 years. I organized the 2012 Fly Fishing Team USA national championships. I’m qualified to tell you that you’re talking out of your ass on this topic.
 
I placed 6th in the 2009 & 2010 Orvis National Casting Competition (accuracy & distance elements built into the casting course in Bend). I’m a FFI certified instructor who’s taught over 1,000 students how to cast and fish. I guided for 20 years. I organized the 2012 Fly Fishing Team USA national championships. I’m qualified to tell you that you’re talking out of your ass on this topic.
I have been fly fishing for 40 years, built and helped developed the best fly rods on the planet for 15 years. I don't need an organization to tell me i know how to fish and the only reason i haven't guided for the last 30 years is i refuse to take peoples money for piss poor fishing.
So your "qualifications" don't impress me much.
Neither guiding or FFF certification is much of a qualification for anything.. i have known too many guides and certified instructors to give much clout to thoes by face value.
I am sure you are a goid caster... but i am not talking out of my ass.
 
I have been fly fishing for 40 years, built and helped developed the best fly rods on the planet for 15 years. I don't need an organization to tell me i know how to fish and the only reason i haven't guided for the last 30 years is i refuse to take peoples money for piss poor fishing.
So your "qualifications" don't impress me much.
Neither guiding or FFF certification is much of a qualification for anything.. i have known too many guides and certified instructors to give much clout to thoes by face value.
I am sure you are a goid caster... but i am not talking out of my ass.
You developed "the best rods on the planet" for 15 years - and now you stock the bait cooler at sportsmen's warehouse... something doesn't add up.
 
You developed "the best rods on the planet" for 15 years - and now you stock the bait cooler at sportsmen's warehouse... something doesn't add up.
Swimmy, This attitude right here is why i hated working with most of the locals in Bozeman, loved the tourists but the locals with their superiority complex thinking they knew more than everyone at Sportsman's.

Matt you are also a couple years behind I haven't worked there for a couple years now almost 3 actually. but i'd rather put maggots in cooler that deal with people who look down on others.

maybe things don't add up because you have no clue who i am.
 
Swimmy, This attitude right here is why i hated working with most of the locals in Bozeman, loved the tourists but the locals with their superiority complex thinking they knew more than everyone at Sportsman's.

Matt you are also a couple years behind I haven't worked there for a couple years now almost 3 actually. but i'd rather put maggots in cooler that deal with people who look down on others.

maybe things don't add up because you have no clue who i am.
I don't look down on you. I tell you when you're making bad arguments. I also give credit when they're not bad arguments. You made bad arguments in this thread. I also think you overstated your work with Burkheimer, who is a great rod builder, and I was admittedly harsh with you. I don't think I would even reply to your comments as much if you didn't make so many oversimplified broad claims that just aren't factual.
 
I don't look down on you. I tell you when you're making bad arguments. I also give credit when they're not bad arguments. You made bad arguments in this thread. I also think you overstated your work with Burkheimer, who is a great rod builder, and I was admittedly harsh with you. I don't think I would even reply to your comments as much if you didn't make so many oversimplified broad claims that just aren't factual.
that whole post is you looking down on me.
 

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