Cactus, I respect your views but take time to read the article that Brent Comer has posted on this thread. Even if the estimate of Iraqis killed was half that figure, that's still an enormous amount of death and agony to deal out to a nation's people who were not the source of the 9/11 terrorism, and, as it turns out, had no WMD's. Besides that, remember almost 1100 US troops have died as well so far. Are you saying it has all been worth it? Is this the best way to build democratic values in the Middle East? Are you for more of the same?
Leland, you started this politcal discourse, you can't bail now! Wait!
Leland, don't look back! Make a good run for it! Hope you strike it rich with that precious metal!
Wow, I'm sure glad I went flishing! :beer1: Had to try out my new canoe trailer, launch went smoothly, so I headed on upstream in the drizzle running late after the last push of the tide, and with my ol' 30#-thrust Minnkota goin' full tilt boogie, I made it to the head of tidewater after the tide had already started draining out of the upper pools. Didn't see any poachers, resource rapers, or politicians. Not even any other fisherpersons.
I was alone on the zipperlip where the tide reaches up into the gorge. I beached my canoe on the gravel bar above the pool where I had caught my first Chum on a fly last fall and tied a #6 flashy green muddler-like streamer, the same fly that fooled 'em last year, onto the 3 feet of 12# test leader blood-knotted to the 10" of 30# coming off my type 6 sinktip. I made a few casts, swinging the fly into the depths of the pool, and then slowly stripping it back along the seam between the fast and slow water. Nothing.
I bit off that fly and tied on a #8 black-and-purple egg-sucking leech, the very same fly that had fooled a chum in another Willapa Bay tributary. Before I could make a cast I noticed some motion in the water in front of me, and that motion materialized into a school of Chum! At least 15 or 20 of 'em! They must have seen me, because they turned and fled back into the pool.
I laid out, swung, and stripped in quite a few casts before one finally took the fly. It was a chromer and she put on a good show, all over the pool and jumping several times. When I had the approx. 8# hen tired out, I reached for my waterproof disposable camera and she managed to get off before I could get a shot. Good enough! I glanced at my watch and noted that it was already 5:30pm. The drizzle had stopped. I worked the pool for another 20 minutes without another take and then buzzed outa there, enjoying the evening cruise back to the boat ramp.
Yep, I like that new canoe trailer! :thumb:
Old Man Jim! I sure hope you went fishing, too! :beer2:
Its not Bushes fault per se but extremists in the Republican Party.
Doesn't anybody remember a week and a half ago 15 thousand absentee registrations were sent in in Florida and none of them were real people!!! and they were ALL registered as REPUBLICANS.
Oh, and the fact is that Kerry has raised Less money than BUSH. About 44 million dollars less. What frustrates me the most about our fellow americans is that they hardly ever look up a fact from a reputable source, like a newspaper. Then maybe Americans will be able to make smarter decisions. Here is a quote..... "That helped both candidates set national fund-raising records, with Bush getting $266 million from individuals compared with Kerry's $222 million" according to the Long Island paper where both canidates were two days ago. Oh and just in case your going to say the Democratic party as a whole raised more than the republican part here is a site with the latest confirmed totals:
1. Does anybody recall that Bush had been in the White House for almost a year when 9-11 happened?
2. Does anybody recall that the 9-11 commission stated that they were problems with Condalezza Rice and here excuses for the Bush administration NOT following up on a FBI report on a iniment attack on the New York area IN AUGUST?
3. Can anybody in America read a newspaper or watch anything other than reality shows to get to anything close to resembling facts?
Your funny! The republican party has been hijacked by the Neo-cons, are you familiar with this term?? Ya know, Rumsfeld and crew? The want to take over the world in the name of democracy! sounds good in theory, but their motives are money and greed. BUT, if your so behind these turds, by all means, pick up a gun, go to iraq, have a "blast"!!! :thumb:
Did ya ever go to a "professional" ballgame, and notice all the tickets are barcoded, "they" know when the ticket is "punched" and "they" know which gate it was punched at......and you ain't gettin' in with a facsimily.......duh,........ barcodes, computers, instant verification, inventory......and the list goes on....... what a novel idea...brainstorm this one, bureaucrats......"they" have control obviously.
"We the people.......", need "they".....
"They" for President 2008
Maybe this is a good place to stick in something I've been wanting to report but I didn't want to start a new thread.
When I was in France on vacation a few days ago, I had the pleasure of watching all types of weird television. One of the channels I could get was Al Jazerra.
One night while watching it, they showed an Iraqui casualty of the war, something we don't do except from a distance. Come to think of it we don't show American casualties either, except in a flag drapped box. War has to be kept clean for the folks back home.
Anyway this causualty, this guy, was on his back with his arms in place as well as his lower torso and that was pretty much it. There were no entrails, no shoulders and no head. The guts had been gouged out and the shoulders and head were someplace else or had just evaporated.
I could see his boots but I was unsure as to the color of his clothes since they were so drenched in blood. They might have been blue. Maybe he got hit with some sort of heavy artillery, I don't know.
But I gasped. My wife left the room and got sick. Here was war right in my face.
Maybe the Iraqi dead are only 35,000 instead of the 100,000 previously reported.
Maybe Hitler killed "ONLY" 5,000,000 Jews instead of the six million normally reported.
But here was just one man, well, half a man, alone in an alley, not found by his family as yet.
We could never show something like that on our TV. It might end the war.
Bob, the I am a Viet Nam vet. I have a right to talk.
I hope we can all agree that its very good thing to have the freedom to discuss our political view points on a public forum such as this. I know that some find it unsettling. But it allows us to vent and rant and rave a little. And it was all done in a generally civil and considerate tone. We may disagree with one another but it never hurts to hear the other person's views. I'm sure no one changed their positions, but if nothing else, I think it all helps to clarify our own stand on issues. This was freedom of speech at its best. Thanks for getting us started Leland.
Do you know if the guy they showed was an 'insurgent' who died fighting the Iraqi and US forces? Was he a terrorist who crossed the border to join the fight there instead of heading to the US to bomb our friends and family? Was it an Iraqi civilian killed by an insurgent or terrorist for hoping and praying for democracy, freedom, an education for his daughter, etc?
Do you recall how many innocents were killed, raped, tortured each year under Saddam?
Cactus, I disagree that the 911 Commision found any link between Iraq and Al-Queda and Iraq having WMD's. What is your source for this?
A recent poll conducted found that 75% of Bush supporters still believe that there is a connection between Iraq and Al-Queda despite the findings of the 911 Commision. The same report found that approximately 80% of Bush supporters also believe that Iraq had WMD's.
As I stated earlier, both the 911 Commision and the Dulfur report found NO link. Yet somehow, Bush supporters insist that there is a link. The report also went on to say that how much one knows about the situation in Iraq is dependent upon where you get your news from. The poll was not conducted by NPR, but it did find that those who listen to NPR were more educated on Iraq by a large percentage than those who were not.
So how is it possible that Bush supporters are hearing something that doesn't exist? They're hearing it from Fox News and/or from the president, not from the commision that reviewed it.
I've come to believe you define yourself by the quality of your information sources (though I'm thinking of media only indirectly). I believe it was the poet/conservationist Gary Snyder who awakened me to this when I was young and experience-dumb back in college. This is even more important in our age of corporate control. Either way, this war is about the economic interest in the middle east. Our Govt wouldn't give two shits about Iraq if it wasn't for oil. There can be no doubt about this. North Korea not only has nuclear weapons but has threatened to use them against us. The genocides of African despots make Saddam look like a saint. But we have no stake in these places.
So I repeat from my earlier post- stop bitching about things you can't control (one person one vote) and do something that makes an impact. Running biodiesel in your rig completely disenfranchises big oil, the middle east (Saddam, Osama, Saudis, etc), and, its is 90% better for the environment. AND it's grown by USA farmers. There are a few other things you can do as well, but this is one you can do tomorrow. America is about ground up, power by the people, for the people. Our economy, and thus our govt, is responsive to our spending choices. We have power there. Use it! Placing all your hope on an election and these politicians to change your life is a pipe dream. Buck up and get to work making change in YOUR OWN life, the politicians will follow. Driving around in a big truck or SUV or commuting 80 miles/day in your Jetta while bitching about the war in Iraq is the ultimate in hypocrisy (though you can run biodiesel in an diesel Excursion and do more than any hippy or Prius driver is doing to f*ck the terrorists). The mind set that we as citizens bear no responsibility for this global-political situation, that it's simply the result of a bad election... sigh..the total lack of accountability... maybe we are indeed seeing the decline and fall. Nobody but ourselves to blame. If we don't take advantage of the opportunities we have, and continue to look to others to solve problems that are within our own domain, we deserve what we get.
What the 911 Commission concluded was that there was no evidence of a "collabrative relationship" between Iraq and al Qaeda's attacks on America. This is a point that President Bush has also stated many times. However, both Thomas Kean and Lee Hamilton, the chair and co-chair, have stated that there were contacts, i.e. "links", between Iraq and al Qaeda.
Although evil, I doubt that Saddam was stupid enough to have a "photo-op" taken signing a mutual co-opperation pact with Usama bin Laden!
Steve Buckner said:
A recent poll conducted found that 75% of Bush supporters still believe that there is a connection between Iraq and Al-Queda despite the findings of the 911 Commision.
Along with 100% of the worlds intellegence services, Bill Clinton, Al Gore, John Kerry and John Edwards. Prior to the invasion of Iraq, everyone agreed that Iraq had WMD.
Steve Buckner said:
Yet somehow, Bush supporters insist that there is a link. The report also went on to say that how much one knows about the situation in Iraq is dependent upon where you get your news from. The poll was not conducted by NPR, but it did find that those who listen to NPR were more educated on Iraq by a large percentage than those who were not.
Actually, it's not a matter of Bush supporters "hearing something that doesn't exist", it's a matter of anti-Bush people REFUSING to hear what does exist because they don't want to believe it! The 911 Commission as well as the Joint Intellegence Committee Report both agree that there were connections between Iraq and al Qaeda.
Apparently, all those NPR listeners aren't as educated on Iraq as you assert! :hmmm: Those 75% of ignorant, in-bred Bush supporters are more informed than NPR listeners. Imagine that!