Californians attempt to rescue their salmon

If you look at the population of cali nothing Totez said is wrong. You can't argue othewise. This looks like head hunting. He liked and I assume agreed with original post. If you don't agree a large population in cali is mostly asswipes you have more faith in humanity then me....
 

GOTY

9x Puget Sound Steelhead Guide of the Year
So much for complimenting your logic. This post makes no sense. So you don't like 60 year old crusty guys, fine. Don't want to support a cause because someone speaks out against you...illogical.
I'm fine with "60 year old crusty guys", that describes half the people in my industry.

I wasn't referring to myself in that post. I'm not a dozen+ people. When you Google occupy Skagit this site comes up, along with all the posts by WW. Wouldn't take long to find this thread.
 

Alosa

Active Member
Christ. This thread
I'm fine with "60 year old crusty guys", that describes half the people in my industry.

I wasn't referring to myself in that post. I'm not a dozen+ people. When you Google occupy Skagit this site comes up, along with all the posts by WW. Wouldn't take long to find this thread.


I would argue that anyone who decides NOT to attend Occupy Skagit based on this thread isn't all that committed to the cause in the first place. Who wants dead weight around when you can have dedicated individuals?
 

Freestone

WFF Premium
So, hey, what about those salmon?!

Sg, Curt, Alosa, Bruce, Richard, Cabezon...what do you think about this from a genetic point of view? Has it gone on long enough to determine if it has improved the genetic and reproductive fitness of the fish? Does anyone one know if they have or plan to introduce out-of-basin strays? Can they hold (or freeze) the eggs and/or milt for later breeding in case better crosses turn up? Can they hold the fish long enough to influence the run timing or rebuild a late component to the run?

Great article and interesting work! Thanks to the OP for sharing. Alsoa, anything that you can add based upon your time there?
 

GOTY

9x Puget Sound Steelhead Guide of the Year
Christ. This thread



I would argue that anyone who decides NOT to attend Occupy Skagit based on this thread isn't all that committed to the cause in the first place. Who wants dead weight around when you can have dedicated individuals?
Careful, 100,000,000+ 'deadweights' are what determines who's president. Never underestimate #s. Just sayin'
 

KerryS

Ignored Member
Careful, 100,000,000+ 'deadweights' are what determines who's president. Never underestimate #s. Just sayin'
Whatever needs to be decided in regards to Occupy Skagit has already been decided. The contents of this thread will have absolutely no impact on whether there is another C&R season on the Skagit or not.

Amazing the logic displayed in this thread.
 

GOTY

9x Puget Sound Steelhead Guide of the Year
Whatever needs to be decided in regards to Occupy Skagit has already been decided. The contents of this thread will have absolutely no impact on whether there is another C&R season on the Skagit or not.

Amazing the logic displayed in this thread.
Then why this push to get local businesses out? Why get commissioners out? Why get board members out?

Sounds good, I guess none of us need to show up then. Logic isn't your strong point yet you bring it up repeatedly.
 

Alosa

Active Member
Great article and interesting work! Thanks to the OP for sharing. Alsoa, anything that you can add based upon your time there?

Thanks for bringing this back around to the original post. While I worked with Carlos' groups until recently, I wasn't directly involved in the day to day work on salmon restoration that was discussed in the article (my work focused primarily on shad and river herring; Alosa spp.). Nonetheless, I was involved in group discussions on a regular basis and did gain some insights from my time there on the general scope of the research goals.

In a general sense, the focus was to use hatcheries in a conservation context, where matings between broodstock aren't haphazard, but well thought out based on the genetic relationships among broodstock individuals (e.g., avoiding matings between closely related individuals so that the incidence of inbreeding could be reduced). As I am sure many folks here know, hatcheries have gotten a bad rap lately, and at least some of that stems from the research that has shown how some hatchery practices can have negative consequences (the published peer-reviewed literature is rife with examples). However, improving the ways in which hatcheries produce fish can reduce at least some of these consequences, and may aid conservation efforts. I know that's pretty vague, but I really can't go into specifics beyond what the article states.
 

cabezon

Sculpin Enterprises
WFF Premium
.... Cabezon...what do you think about this from a genetic point of view? Has it gone on long enough to determine if it has improved the genetic and reproductive fitness of the fish? Does anyone one know if they have or plan to introduce out-of-basin strays?
Hi Freestone,
This would address one of the major problems with the lack of genetic diversity among hatchery populations, especially in populations that are at severe risk of extinction. Similar work was done with selective breeding of California condors; that work would be considered a success in producing a genetically-diverse population that has successfully been re-introduced into the wild. In both the condor and salmon cases, sustaining genetic diversity, especially in the face of declining population numbers, is a huge step toward the possibility of recovery. Directed matings avoid the bottleneck effect (see http://wallace.genetics.uga.edu/groups/evol3000/wiki/fb221/Bottlenecks_and_Founder_Effects.html) that can occur at small population sizes if reproduction is allowed to continue "randomly". [Of course, if one wants wild populations to eventually be self-sustaining, it helps if there is quality habitat and reduced human-driven mortality, but one issue at a time...]
I doubt that there have been enough generations to track the success of this strategy, especially in light of the natural fluctuations/variability that salmonids experience. I would assume that the issue of how to handle strays would be included in the permitting plan. I would think that the genetic diversity that strays would add to a basin's population would be encouraged.
Several of your questions appear to be on Dr. Garza's research agenda. You can read more about his research interests and the titles of his publications here: https://swfsc.noaa.gov/staff.aspx?id=709. His background is in population genetics, not fisheries per se. His publications have appeared in fisheries journals and several prestigious academic journals.
Steve
 

KerryS

Ignored Member
Now you're just actively destroying the cause out of embarrassment for being in the wrong. Maturity isn't strong with this one either.

Right or wrong in regards to this thread is a matter of opinion and in this case I don't share your opinion. If you think the posts I made in this thread is "actively destroying the cause" then I must again question your use of logic or complete lack of. This is beyond rediculas.
 

Alosa

Active Member
Hi Freestone,
This would address one of the major problems with the lack of genetic diversity among hatchery populations, especially in populations that are at severe risk of extinction. Similar work was done with selective breeding of California condors; that work would be considered a success in producing a genetically-diverse population that has successfully been re-introduced into the wild. In both the condor and salmon cases, sustaining genetic diversity, especially in the face of declining population numbers, is a huge step toward the possibility of recovery. Directed matings avoid the bottleneck effect (see http://wallace.genetics.uga.edu/groups/evol3000/wiki/fb221/Bottlenecks_and_Founder_Effects.html) that can occur at small population sizes if reproduction is allowed to continue "randomly". [Of course, if one wants wild populations to eventually be self-sustaining, it helps if there is quality habitat and reduced human-driven mortality, but one issue at a time...]
I doubt that there have been enough generations to track the success of this strategy, especially in light of the natural fluctuations/variability that salmonids experience. I would assume that the issue of how to handle strays would be included in the permitting plan. I would think that the genetic diversity that strays would add to a basin's population would be encouraged.
Several of your questions appear to be on Dr. Garza's research agenda. You can read more about his research interests and the titles of his publications here: https://swfsc.noaa.gov/staff.aspx?id=709. His background is in population genetics, not fisheries per se. His publications have appeared in fisheries journals and several prestigious academic journals.
Steve

Cabezon pretty much nailed it here.
 

Freestone

WFF Premium
Thanks so much, Alosa and Steve! And thanks for the links, Steve! I will check them out.

I was fortunate enough to see condors when I floated the Grand Canyon; they were impressive birds! I also had the privilege of witnessing a condor release at the Vermilion Cliffs a few years ago. It is heartening to think that the same type of applied genetics that brought the condors back from the brink is now being applied to salmon.

I imagine Dr. Garza's (and his team) analysis must be expensive. Still, it makes me wonder how it could be used on populations that are not in as dire straights yet. I wonder if further declines could be prevented/slowed with some thoughtful pairings. A dream come true would be to use this process to identify the residual genetics of the Elwah fish and rebuild the stocks from close relatives. One can fantasize I guess...
 

Support WFF | Remove the Ads

Support WFF by upgrading your account. Site supporters benefits include no ads and access to some additional features, few now, more in the works. Info
Top