On religion and such

You must fish the Clearwater. I've only fished the Clearwater once, but Coyote Fishnet is one fine looking drift. Unfortunately, despite numerous trips through it, we came up empty (while the gear guys w/ corkies did quite well). Someday I hope to return and take another crack at that river. A friend and colleague grew up on the Lapwai reservation and his parents live in a beautiful home overlooking the Clearwater. At the base of their canyon is a lovely drift we named Wilson's drift. Never got to fish it because the whole time we were there people were at that drift EARLY. That's nice country down there...particularly if you like to steelhead.


Bob Triggs

Stop Killing Wild Steelhead!
Huh? Whats this? Fishing talk on a Religion Website?!

Next thing you know they will be talking about techniques and favorite waters, rods, flylines and such! :eek:

Since I am the author of the post that so astounded you (post #100), I will drop you a PM and cite at least three different posts that preceded mine which evoked my remark. You need to do better research before you rebut something with an assertion not warranted by evidence which is very clearly written and plain to see.

Bob, the Man of whom you so love to ruffle his feathers. :mad:


Dana Miller
They say it is because it is the right thing to do and I must do the right thing according to them. Often they quote the bible-something I don't believe in.

I don't ask them to not believe in it. I let them decide that. Why not make these decisions on your own, those that affect your life and leave me alone. I don't need your morality. I have my own. I just need you to stay out of my business.
But aren't you guilty of the same thing that you complain Christian's are doing to you?

I rather doubt anyone is unaware of the plight of the wild steelhead and killing one is nothing other than ignorance and indifference to the conservation of the last few of these great fish. I cannot respect such people, nor do I believe they are worthy of such respect because they may "have honest differences of opinion." Or that they are following the law.
This is a fun read...

I had an interesting conversation a couple of weeks ago. I suffered a slight stroke and had to go to the emergency room, where I proceeded to wait for an eternity before being cared for. A young woman struck up a conversation with me. I think she was some sort of evangelistic missionary. Anyway, at one point she informed me (not knowing my long history with Christianity) that god would forgive any sin that I ever could have committed. I think that was supposed to comfort me.
I had time on my hands, so I decided to have some fun. I said to her, what if I blew up a dam and caused an entire village to be flooded and all the people to drown? What if I released a deadly virus that infected millions of people, including children, and they died long, painful lingering deaths? What if I was somehow able to cause a massive earthquake that killed thousands, or a hurricane? Would god still forgive me?
"I know you haven't done those things, no one could be that evil, except maybe Hitler. I don't know if god would forgive such great evil. I guess he would if you were sorry and stopped doing evil."
But what if I intended to continue? No, she said, god would not forgive if you were going to keep doing evil.
Then I said, you tell me god will forgive me, BUT WHO WILL FORGIVE GOD? All the things I mentioned, occur throughout the world daily. Earthquakes, floods, famine, disease, mud slides, hurricanes, tornadoes are not caused by a person. You say your god is all-knowing, all-good and loving, all-powerful. This would imply that he knows the suffering, has the power to stop it or change it, and yet does nothing, and as far as we know, will continue doing nothing so that this suffering will continue.
I suggest to you that it is illogical that a being can exist that is all- loving and all-powerful, and allows terrible evil. Either the god is not all- knowing, and does not know what is happening. Or not all-powerful, and therefore can't change any of it. Or is not all-loving, and simply doesn't care that it's happening. Of course the easiest and most reasonable answer is that this kind of god does not exist at all. If such a god did exist, it would be far too horrible to contemplate. A being that knows all the suffering is happening, is able to change it, and refuses to do so!
The young woman had been still for some time, trying to absorb what I was saying. She finally said, "You just don't understand," and she got up and moved to the other side of the room.
It was an interesting idea to me that if this god of the Christians existed, he would be more "sinful" than those who worship him, and those whom he is supposedly able to forgive. Odd, isn't it, that the young woman could only respond, "You don't understand." I wonder if later it occurred to her that she "did not understand." Maybe I planted some seeds of critical thinking, but I probably only succeeded in making her cling to her beliefs even more tightly, and insisting to herself that she must take things "on faith."


Be the guide...
Nice little story Dave. Sounds like the typical 'enlightened' university professor picking a fight with a well intentioned (but a little naive about the world) college freshman. He must have been really proud of himself. LOL
She probably new exactly what to say, but was so astounded at his ignorant and spiteful comments, she just had to back off...

"Then I said, you tell me god will forgive me, BUT WHO WILL FORGIVE GOD? .... You say your god is all-knowing, all-good and loving, all-powerful. This would imply that he knows the suffering, has the power to stop it or change it, and yet does nothing, ..."

It is pretty simple really. It goes back to the concept of 'free will'. If God were a 24X7 baby sitter, or created a 'perfect' world full of robots who did the 'right thing' all the time, etc, it would not be 'free will'. And as I said before, we would not have real and compelling choices. God HAS to allow people to choose and act in evil ways. Without evil, death, pain, sadness - we would not really know good, life, joy, and happiness. God does not DO those things Himself, but he HAS to allow them. In his BIG PICTURE point of view -where the innocent or those who pass His righteous judgment will live with Him in heaven for eternity, the pain and suffering on this world are but a spec in time.

Anyway, I could go on on, but I getta go...
This is my beliefs on statements like this one.

God originally created a perfect place for man to fellowship (hang out) with Him. (Garden of Eden)

Man then became greedy, and decided to see if there was more than what God was offering to him. (Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit, so they could have the knowledge of good and evil.)

Because of their actions, the ground was cursed. Man must now work the land "through painful toil."

This is my paraphrase of the first couple of chapters in the book of Genesis. How I interpret these passages, is that man turned his back on God. Because of the knowledge we now posses we get to experience everything the world has to offer. This includes earthquakes and diseases, as well as the beauty of fishing that secret hole. I have yet to find any passeges in the Bible that exempts anyone from the hardships and evil that are in the world. I have though found passages letting us know that we will experience them. The 23rd Psalm reads:
4 Even though I walk
through the valley of the shadow of death,
I will fear no evil,
for you are with me;
your rod and your staff,
they comfort me.
I'd like to highlight the word "through." We have to go through the bad stuff in this world. The good news is that God is willing to walk with anyone that asks him.

I don't see much difference between this and telling a child not to touch a stove because it is hot. Does this make the parent evil, is the child decides to touch it?
dmoocher --

I thought you were all about science and facts – empirical evidence and demonstrable proof. If I didn’t know better, I’d think you were beginning to venture into the realm of philosophy. That’s alright, though. Philosophy, as a discipline, gets scant attention these days, which is a pity. Some of History’s greatest thinkers never set foot inside the lab. Socrates, Plato, Cicero, Voltaire, Locke . . . Darwin's work, when you really examine it, was more philosophy than science.

I suspect the conversation you posted never really took place. Or, more likely, it took place in some form, but the final product is what the author came up with the next day, saying, “Dang! That’s what I should have said!” (happens to me everyday – which is why I love the edit function on this board). Even so, it’s very believable. I am quite certain I have sent one or two Jehovah’s Witnesses away from my door a little confused about their doctrine.

What I hope you realize is that the questions you are raising are not novel. From Aurelius Augustinus to C.S. Lewis and beyond, these questions have been asked and answered ad nauseam by minds far greater than yours or mine. The answers are not pat or simple, of course (they never are in philosophy), but they are quite satisfactory. If you have genuine interest in how suffering can exist in a world supposedly created by a good and loving God, I recommend for your reading, The Problem of Pain, by C.S. Lewis. At the very least, his analysis is more intellectually stimulating than your clever friend in the emergency room.
BR...I appologize for not referencing the source....I got this from this Pantheist site on the web. This is from a 48 year old former Catholic nun (if you can believe her) who could not find the answers whe was looking for.

As far as Science and facts...yes I do...that's why I keep searching...I haven't resigned my self to attributing everything I don't understand to "Gods will".

Neither one of us is going to convince the other and I'm not attempting to convince you of anything...I'm illustrating that there are others that have the same issues, concerns and questions that I do and we believe that those who seem to have all the answers...don't. BTW: I love C.S Lewis.

I'll let Galilleo sum it up for me...
I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended
us to forgo their use.

Galileo Galilei
Chad...What free will is there in a Tsunami, cholera, malaria...people have free will to choose Diptheria?... or is the old testament God reaking some old time vengance?

I recall some christian leaders saying the Tsunami was God smiting the Swedish sodomites vacationing in Indonesia...talk about collateral damage!

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