Stupid Questions about Flatwing Flies

bjkhred

no longer new to board
#31
I certainly respect your opinion but I'll just have to agree to disagree.

Confidence in what you're fishing is IMO one of the most important factors in all fishing. If you believe a jungle cock fly will swim better or out produce an epoxy head fly, then that's all that really matters.
No offense Nick, but in regards to the physical dynamics of why one would use jungle cock or not...... I would recommend your sticking to arguing areas that you know....... Every other person that has commented on this post have had useful and helpful things to say, and are obviously from folks that are experienced fly tiers. Your comments have simply shown your lack of tying experience. Tying involves much more thought than simply pretty materials and dumbbell eyes or a conehead. I don't doubt that you tie, and you obviously love it. But if you don't understand the physics behind why one would need to use specific eyes on specific fly bodies (which is evident based on your IG posts), don't comment, as it is leading a fisherman in the wrong direction. You cannot and do not tie flatwings, which is why you should not comment on this post. You do not understand the dynamics of why one would use one set of eyes over another for this specific style of fly.
 
#33
No offense Nick, but in regards to the physical dynamics of why one would use jungle cock or not...... I would recommend your sticking to arguing areas that you know....... Every other person that has commented on this post have had useful and helpful things to say, and are obviously from folks that are experienced fly tiers. Your comments have simply shown your lack of tying experience. Tying involves much more thought than simply pretty materials and dumbbell eyes or a conehead. I don't doubt that you tie, and you obviously love it. But if you don't understand the physics behind why one would need to use specific eyes on specific fly bodies (which is evident based on your IG posts), don't comment, as it is leading a fisherman in the wrong direction. You cannot and do not tie flatwings, which is why you should not comment on this post. You do not understand the dynamics of why one would use one set of eyes over another for this specific style of fly.

Haha Wow, that escalated quickly. Not sure why personal attacks are appropriate here, but if that's your style that's cool.

I do tie a few flatwings, though its certainly no prerequisite for having opinions worthy of posting here. But you're right, in general I don't focus on them as I'm not into that style of tying, or spending that much time working on one fly. It's certainly not for lack of ability to get some feathers to lie flat on a hook. You clearly enjoy tying and fishing them, and that's cool. But your preference for them doesn't prove a damn thing regarding their ability to catch fish. You catch fish with them because you tie and fish them. I catch fish with other flies because I tie and fish them. These are cutthroat were talking here, there is very little they won't eat. See @Kfish resistor fly.

You are free to make your fly tying as complicated as you like, I have zero beef with that. And you're also free to think my flies look like shit. No beef with that either. But my results speak for themselves. My flies, while maybe goofy to your eyes, have been approved by countless fish over the years just as yours have. Nowhere have I claimed that I know better, fish better, or tie better. Hell I openly admit you are much more skilled in the fly tying department. But thinking that an engineering degree is required to be able to tie a fly that will catch searun cutthroat is flat silly.

Keep on keeping on. I have no ill will towards you or Justin, in spite of such mature attacks. I stated an opinion, one that is based on countless days on the water. Your opinions are surely based on the same, but don't dare fool yourself into thinking that because you work as a guide that you somehow know better, or even spend more time on the water than some of us mere mortals.

Have a nice day! I'm gonna go tie up some more of my goofy, poorly tied flies that will no doubt catch me a lot of fish on the water tomorrow.
 
#34
Buckle up, this is a long one.

Or it could be...
There are more fish schooled up at the bow than the stern and it wouldn't matter which fly either threw. One thing we can be confident in, the guide has an ego and shows prejudice to those who will listen to him. Maybe we should look for a guide with jungle cock eyes, when determining our confidence in guide choice?? You can have the best looking fly in the world, have all the confidence in it, but at the end of the day...there has to be fish "in" the water you are fishing. This I am confident in. ;)
The argument was essentially does how the fly was tied make a difference. I would argue that is a stupid question, and of coarse it matters, density, drag, weight, and movement all effects how it fishes. The flies movement starts at the head of the fly (hints why you do not fish a fouled fly). Truthfully my ego is why I would move the boat in a way that would make the second persons techniques work. I would argue that you should probably find a guide who knows a bit about why a fly swims a certain way or how the water they are fishing effects it. By the way, I like Nick I think he is a super nice dude. However I love tying flies, and this is terrible advise. If Brita who I very much love came on here and said something misleading about tuna fishing I would probably tell her to stay in her lane as well.

I did not say "that's all that really matters" in regard to ALL of fishing... As if to say fishing a spark plug tied onto a floating line with confidence will catch just as many fish as a properly tied fly pattern. The "all that really matters" was in relation to confidence itself. I strongly believe in having confidence that what you are fishing is the right fly, with the right retrieve, at the right time/location. That confidence can vary from person to person though, and that's my point. In the situation you describe I would fish whatever fly I chose with extreme confidence, and I would catch fish. You might choose to have your clients fish with flatwings tied a certain way because that would give you the confidence to do your job effectively. You yourself have confidence that if you move the boat a bit that your client who isn't listening is going to catch a couple fish. But how do you prove that he caught that fish BECAUSE you moved the boat, and would not have done so anyway? How do you know that one guy fishing a JC fly is casting over a pod of 5 fish in the bow while one guy fishing an epoxy head in the stern is casting over empty water? Perhaps the guy on the bow has shortened his leader to the point that his fly is riding lower in the water column? Perhaps he was eating Cheetos and got some on his JC fly and cutthroat love Cheetos. How can you prove that when you have your client replace his non JC fly with one that does have JC that in that three minute span some fish moved into the area? Now when they recast their new fly they are showing the fly to fish that were not there a few minutes prior. There are so many factors in fishing which is why I'm a big believer in confidence. At the end of the day we can't control all these factors, so IMO the best we can do is fish what we feel is an appropriate fly for the time and place. You guys like to fish flatwings with your program. That's your gig and I can dig that for sure. Not everyone has the patience to tie those things, especially when doing so for clients who I'm sure lose a ton of them. But the bottom line is you can't prove a negative.... You can't prove that your flatwing outfishes a wooly bugger fished with confidence. There are far too many unknown factors. This is where confidence is key for me.... Because there are so many outside factors, and so many things we can't really prove, I believe the best one can do is find what works for them and stick with it.

Nobody is doubting that you guys know the Canal well, or that your flies don't catch fish. You both tie amazing flies, (Especially Brita, no offense Justin :)s) but I simply choose to approach this fishery differently. I tend to approach all fisheries differently really. I too fish for a living, albeit different fisheries, but at the end of the day fishing is fishing and myself I have become a big believer in 98% of the time its the archer, not the arrow. No doubt you are good at your job, which perhaps explains a customers success better than JC vs. Non JC. Myself I am very much in the K.I.S.S. camp when it comes to fishing, and I have a very high level of confidence in my ability to catch fish. In every fishery I've ever engaged in I've taken the most simple, direct approach and my results have been very good. Put me on the bow of your boat with a box of my own flies, and you guys fish the stern with your flatwings, and at the end of the day I am quite sure we will both have stellar days. Especially with someone like yourself who knows the water so well running the boat.

We get these guys on the ocean all the time... The ones who show up to go tuna fishing with every piece of fancy gear known to man. Rapalas, X-Raps, fancy Japanese plugs I can't even pronounce, flatfall jigs, butterfly jigs, poppers etc etc etc. They do things like put scent on their gear, drop down to 15 lb fluorocarbon, change their lure/size/color every five minutes looking for that bite. When he does hookup hes convinced it's because he finally found the right lure.
I on the other hand, spending every single day of the summer tuna fishing, just smile and wait for the albacore to come eat the cedar plug I'm running on the port side outrigger.
My personal belief is you are good at your job for the same reason I am good at mine. You spend so much time on the water, not because your flies have JC. But just like your opinion, mine certainly can't be proved.

I know of several guys who spend just as much time on the water with their wooly buggers and catch as many fish as anyone.

There's more than one way to skin a cat, which is one reason I love fishing so much. We can each approach a fishery differently and each catch plenty of fish doing it our own way

To be completely honest I very rarely fish flies tied with jungle cock 3/4 of the year because of where I tend to hold the boat when fishing. It just doesn't typically call for a super light baitfish pattern. However in the spring when we fish a lot of shallow flats and can see the fish moving to the smaller sandlance we do fish them pretty often. I fish dozens of different patterns throughout the season, we fish a lot of flatwings because they work and I like tying them. I fish a lot of sculpin and worm patterns in the winter, I fish a ton of termites and gurlger-ish flies in the fall. The constantly changing water conditions keeps this fishery so interesting. But this is not the argument. You made a comment saying you disagreed that a fly would fish differently with a epoxy or fishmask head, than it would with jungle cock. Then wrote a book about fishing with confidence. If I wrote "a 4wt is a great albacore rod" I would expect you to say "hey dumb ass. no it is not." I am not sure if you have ever watched your fly pull through the water, but the shit attached to the metal part, make a difference in how it moves. If you do not believe me do this... tie a wooly bugger... then tie another wooly bugger but instead of wrapping the hackle just leave it at a 90 degree angle off the side of the fly. Pull both through the water on light tippet. I promise they will not swim the same. If they do, start buying all of your flies rather than tying them, I'll make you a solid deal.


"In the situation you describe I would fish whatever fly I chose with extreme confidence, and I would catch fish."
This argument is not exactly scientific. Explaining the difference between an epoxy head and light feathers for eyes is pretty simple. Epoxy adds density and weight to the head of the fly. Creating a jigging motion. Having jungle cock eyes or no eyes for that matter, allows the fly to flutter without a jigging motion... I am not arguing that you have to fish a flat wing. you could fish whatever baitfish pattern you wish, the theory is still the same. weight at the head of a fly, is going to make it dive, when you strip, the fly will jig.

"You yourself have confidence that if you move the boat a bit that your client who isn't listening is going to catch a couple fish. But how do you prove that he caught that fish BECAUSE you moved the boat, and would not have done so anyway?"

Obviously, in very few situations, I can not prove this. However, often, you can see signs that fish are on a certain section of the water. Current, bait, OR you just look through the water and see them chasing your other clients flies. Most of the water fish in Puget Sound is clear believe it or not. Also most of what we do is sight fishing. We've been doing this for quite a while now.... I rarely depend on dumb luck (however I do appreciate it). We do not take clients out to random pieces of water and hope for the best.

"Perhaps he was eating Cheetos and got some on his JC fly and cutthroat love Cheetos. How can you prove that when you have your client replace his non JC fly with one that does have JC that in that three minute span some fish moved into the area? Now when they recast their new fly they are showing the fly to fish that were not there a few minutes prior. There are so many factors in fishing which is why I'm a big believer in confidence."


When you meet your clients in the morning on the tuna boat do you say "We have no fucking idea what we are doing, but some fish might just swim by end up on the hook?" These are the reasons people hire a fishing guide, to learn things and negate the factors. There is an actual skill to catching fish, you do know that right? Things that you can learn along the way. I'm a big believer that my job as a guide is to limit the number of factors right down to the least amount possible. We are consistently trying to learn new things to negate as many of these factors as we can. Again, this is not what your comment was about. However, if you are fishing shallow water, you can negate the factor of constantly being stuck on the bottom by not putting on a fly with a heavy head. Perhaps using jungle cock would be more appropriate at this time.

"You can't prove that your flatwing outfishes a wooly bugger fished with confidence. There are far too many unknown factors. This is where confidence is key for me...."


We were discussing that a FLATWING FLY fishes differently with jungle cock vs a FLATWING FLY tied with an epoxy head... The argument of whether or not a wooly bugger outfishes a flatwing is completely different... However, A wooly bugger tied to imiatate a worm, might outfish a flatwing tied to imitate a smelt when there are worms all over the place. A wooly bugger tied to imitate a squid, probably wont outfish a flatwing tied to look like a squid when there are squid all over the place.

"You both tie amazing flies, (Especially Brita, no offense Justin :)s)"
I appreciate the compliment (back handed or not). However, Brita ties amazing flies because she understands what makes a fly amazing for the condition she is fishing them in... And she uses performance enhancing drugs such as candy and... well candy mostly.

"I know of several guys who spend just as much time on the water with their wooly buggers and catch as many fish as anyone." Do they though? No doubt Wooly Buggers work. They might even add to the confidence of the angler because everyone knows a wooly bugger has potential to catch fish. BUT does that wooly bugger have jungle cock eyes or an epoxy head? Because without that information its still probably irrelevant to the conversation.

"There's more than one way to skin a cat, which is one reason I love fishing so much. We can each approach a fishery differently and each catch plenty of fish doing it our own way."
Again, the argument was does HOW a flatwing fly is tied change how it fishes in different water. Again, this has nothing to do with the argument. I love all the different ways you can catch cutthroat too. I love trying different tactics and fishing surface flies and the works. However, ALL of my flies are designed for specific water types. That was the argument.

This is very similar to the global warming argument... 99% of fly tiers who tie flatwing flies KNOW that the materials used to tie the fly will effect the way a fly swims. 1% of folks who don't tie flat wings will argue "wooly buggers can skin cats".






 
#35
Justin, I appreciate your thoughtful response. I'm truly not interested in getting into a mud slinging match with anyone, and I certainly don't make claim to be better than anyone at anything. I know we haven't hung out or fished or anything, but you always seemed cool the few times we've met and I have no doubt we would have a great time on the water together. I truly don't mean to ruffle feathers or attack anyone, but I get the impression that is how it may be perceived.

I totally agree that a guide has an image to uphold, and a certain amount of confidence if not "arrogance" is required. I certainly don't want to get on a boat with someone who doesn't claim to know what they're doing, at least if I'm paying them. When people get on my tuna boat I don't tell them I have no idea what I'm doing, but I do interact with a lot of people in that job and get asked all sorts of questions and I am not shy about my opinions. I approach tuna fishing the same way I do src fishing.... Finding the fish is 90% of the battle 90% of the time and I truly believe that. I've found most saltwater fish are opportunistic feeders more often than not, which is great for a hack like me because I can show them something that the books say shouldn't work, and still catch fish. I've had many similar discussions on the tuna grounds with customers and its always interesting. People have their way of doing things, and are usually quick to tell me why I'm wrong or doing it wrong, but the fact is I have spent more time tuna fishing in the last three years than most people do in several life times, so I feel that while there are many ways to approach it, I do have the experience to back up my opion

I will concede that the same fly designed in different ways is going to fish better and be more appropriate for certain situations. No argument here. When I made the original comment regarding JC that started this whole debacle, I was more thinking of a fish looking at a fly tied with JC right next to a fly tied with another style of head and thinking to themselves "Man that fly looks ok, but I'm really in the mood for some JC." lol And when were talking clients and people of varying skill level it certainly calls for a different approach. By that I mean, if you were fishing one of the shallow flats you referred to and your client could not keep a fish skull, or epoxy headed fly out of the rocks then switching to something unweighted makes perfect sense. However IMO that has as much to do with their experience and ability as it does the actual fly design. I've found myself in that situation many, many times.... And I'm often unprepared for it. I fish heavy sinking lines far more often than not, so when I'm standing on a shallow beach with even a full intermediate line and the situation calls for a floater and unweighted pattern I don't just continue to lose flies in the rocks, I find ways to adjust. I increase my strip speed, change my casting angle in relation to the current, lengthen the leader greatly so my line is not pulling it down as much etc etc. Someone inexperienced in our fisheries, or even in fly fishing in general may not know how to make the necessary adjustments and therefore as a guide you have to account for this and the easiest solution is obviously an unweighted fly or one designed to "hover" or even float if necessary. I completely get where you're coming from there.

Ultimately I think we're just looking at the problem through two different eyes. I mean absolutely no offense to Brita, I truly do admire her fly tying skills. Some of her IG pics are just flat amazing. But honestly, to claim that I don't know what I'm talking about or can't tie an effective fly is a bit outlandish. Say what you will about me or my way of doing things, I catch my share of fish. You guys do as well, and I totally respect that.

Threads like this are a great way to discuss ideas and learn new stuff. I certainly have a good amount of respect for both of you as fly fishers and tiers, (And my compliment towards Brita wasn't intended to be backhanded... More of a joke, I'm sure you're used to people being blown away by her flies :) )

I just tend to approach my fishing in as simple and direct method of possible. If I think a fly will catch just as many fish without eyes, I won't add eyes just for the sake of it. If I feel a straight mono leader will catch the fish then I'm not going to go with a tapered 9 footer and so on and so on. Its just my style. I'm a pretty simple guy in general really and just prefer to do things that way. For me I feel it works better. Doesn't mean it works better for anyone else, just for me. I watch as many Gunnar Brammer videos as anyone, and certainly appreciate the thought that goes into designing a fly in that method... And from your guys posts here it seems you share similar thoughts regarding fly design. I simply don't share the same thoughts, that's all. While I can appreciate all the thought that goes into it, its just my personal belief that its going way further with the topic than is necessary. I think we as humans love to over think, analyze, and give attributes to fish based on our own way of looking at things... But at the end of the day we don't have a clue what the fish are thinking. When I catch fish on a Delia's Squid i have absolutely no idea if the fish actually thinks its a squid, and frankly I don't really care. I'm happy enough just to catch that fish. And that's kinda my approach to tying. I don't know why a Squimp works. No clue whatsoever. What I do know is that it DOES work, and for me that's all I need to know.

I'm also a believer in certain factors being triggers to getting a strike. I believe the GP at the back of a Squimp is ultimately the key to that fly. I also believe that cutthroat will key in on eyeballs. Therefore when I tie up a goofy fly as I did the other day with big GITD eyes at the back of the fly near the GP, I do so for reasons that make sense in my own convoluted way of looking at things. It might not have much appeal to those who enjoy fishing more classical patterns, but IMO it combines two of my favorite fish catching elements into one and that can't be anything but good. At least that's what goes on in my head when I tie up some goofy stuff that apparently I shouldn't be sharing on IG.

Anyway, I've said my piece and will leave it at that. I have no interest in starting any sort of pissing contest, and that was not at all my intent with any of my posts. I do apologize if it came off that way.
 
#37
Without picking sides here....both sides are right IMO. The sticking point is the JC eyes. It's not about JC vs whatever, it's more about fly weight and action IMO. You with jungle cockiness may argue, but I bet the same fly with no weight and no eyes will fish just as well (in the shallow flat situation) as it would with the addition of cockeyes like 95% of the time. Same goes for the epoxy head fly. It will fish just as well with or without the eyes included 90% of the time. 3D eyes get an extra 5% because with JC - that shit doesn't look like eyes anyways. :eek::D

I doubt Nick would disagree that front weighted flies fish differently than unweighted flies. That's what is really being compared here - it has nothing (or not as much) to do with the eyes. And I think Brita was really saying that an unweighted fly fishes better in some spots than one with a weighted head - her unweighted flies just happen to be JC adorned.

Edit to add that Brita ties better flies than all the rest of you (and me).
Edit 2 to add that I also add lots of crap to my flies that the fish probably don't care about, because it makes me feel better.
 
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#39
Justin, I appreciate your thoughtful response. I'm truly not interested in getting into a mud slinging match with anyone, and I certainly don't make claim to be better than anyone at anything. I know we haven't hung out or fished or anything, but you always seemed cool the few times we've met and I have no doubt we would have a great time on the water together. I truly don't mean to ruffle feathers or attack anyone, but I get the impression that is how it may be perceived.

I totally agree that a guide has an image to uphold, and a certain amount of confidence if not "arrogance" is required. I certainly don't want to get on a boat with someone who doesn't claim to know what they're doing, at least if I'm paying them. When people get on my tuna boat I don't tell them I have no idea what I'm doing, but I do interact with a lot of people in that job and get asked all sorts of questions and I am not shy about my opinions. I approach tuna fishing the same way I do src fishing.... Finding the fish is 90% of the battle 90% of the time and I truly believe that. I've found most saltwater fish are opportunistic feeders more often than not, which is great for a hack like me because I can show them something that the books say shouldn't work, and still catch fish. I've had many similar discussions on the tuna grounds with customers and its always interesting. People have their way of doing things, and are usually quick to tell me why I'm wrong or doing it wrong, but the fact is I have spent more time tuna fishing in the last three years than most people do in several life times, so I feel that while there are many ways to approach it, I do have the experience to back up my opion

I will concede that the same fly designed in different ways is going to fish better and be more appropriate for certain situations. No argument here. When I made the original comment regarding JC that started this whole debacle, I was more thinking of a fish looking at a fly tied with JC right next to a fly tied with another style of head and thinking to themselves "Man that fly looks ok, but I'm really in the mood for some JC." lol And when were talking clients and people of varying skill level it certainly calls for a different approach. By that I mean, if you were fishing one of the shallow flats you referred to and your client could not keep a fish skull, or epoxy headed fly out of the rocks then switching to something unweighted makes perfect sense. However IMO that has as much to do with their experience and ability as it does the actual fly design. I've found myself in that situation many, many times.... And I'm often unprepared for it. I fish heavy sinking lines far more often than not, so when I'm standing on a shallow beach with even a full intermediate line and the situation calls for a floater and unweighted pattern I don't just continue to lose flies in the rocks, I find ways to adjust. I increase my strip speed, change my casting angle in relation to the current, lengthen the leader greatly so my line is not pulling it down as much etc etc. Someone inexperienced in our fisheries, or even in fly fishing in general may not know how to make the necessary adjustments and therefore as a guide you have to account for this and the easiest solution is obviously an unweighted fly or one designed to "hover" or even float if necessary. I completely get where you're coming from there.

Ultimately I think we're just looking at the problem through two different eyes. I mean absolutely no offense to Brita, I truly do admire her fly tying skills. Some of her IG pics are just flat amazing. But honestly, to claim that I don't know what I'm talking about or can't tie an effective fly is a bit outlandish. Say what you will about me or my way of doing things, I catch my share of fish. You guys do as well, and I totally respect that.

Threads like this are a great way to discuss ideas and learn new stuff. I certainly have a good amount of respect for both of you as fly fishers and tiers, (And my compliment towards Brita wasn't intended to be backhanded... More of a joke, I'm sure you're used to people being blown away by her flies :) )

I just tend to approach my fishing in as simple and direct method of possible. If I think a fly will catch just as many fish without eyes, I won't add eyes just for the sake of it. If I feel a straight mono leader will catch the fish then I'm not going to go with a tapered 9 footer and so on and so on. Its just my style. I'm a pretty simple guy in general really and just prefer to do things that way. For me I feel it works better. Doesn't mean it works better for anyone else, just for me. I watch as many Gunnar Brammer videos as anyone, and certainly appreciate the thought that goes into designing a fly in that method... And from your guys posts here it seems you share similar thoughts regarding fly design. I simply don't share the same thoughts, that's all. While I can appreciate all the thought that goes into it, its just my personal belief that its going way further with the topic than is necessary. I think we as humans love to over think, analyze, and give attributes to fish based on our own way of looking at things... But at the end of the day we don't have a clue what the fish are thinking. When I catch fish on a Delia's Squid i have absolutely no idea if the fish actually thinks its a squid, and frankly I don't really care. I'm happy enough just to catch that fish. And that's kinda my approach to tying. I don't know why a Squimp works. No clue whatsoever. What I do know is that it DOES work, and for me that's all I need to know.

I'm also a believer in certain factors being triggers to getting a strike. I believe the GP at the back of a Squimp is ultimately the key to that fly. I also believe that cutthroat will key in on eyeballs. Therefore when I tie up a goofy fly as I did the other day with big GITD eyes at the back of the fly near the GP, I do so for reasons that make sense in my own convoluted way of looking at things. It might not have much appeal to those who enjoy fishing more classical patterns, but IMO it combines two of my favorite fish catching elements into one and that can't be anything but good. At least that's what goes on in my head when I tie up some goofy stuff that apparently I shouldn't be sharing on IG.

Anyway, I've said my piece and will leave it at that. I have no interest in starting any sort of pissing contest, and that was not at all my intent with any of my posts. I do apologize if it came off that way.
I certainly did not mean to be a dick either. I'll make you a cocktail at the Fly Fishing Show and a hug if you would like. I don't want to be another #metoo.

I am fairly safe on the image thing...

My point was not that you tie shit flies, I believe you said you were fairly new to tying not that long ago. Even if you are not new, your not a commercial fly tier and you are catching fish. However, the point was that there are in fact reasons some fly designs that fish better in some situations. Which to me, seems like a very straight forward thing. Jungle Cock on the fly doesn't make it reach out and do magic tricks, however it does negate the idea of putting a thick epoxy head on. A thick epoxy head does not make it sink like lead eyes, but in a shallow water situation when you are fishing juvenile baitfish, it will sink faster than the type of strip you would want to fish. If eyes are a must, this is a damn good time to use jungle cock. Plus the stuff just looks super good. Particularly paired with polar bear and seal fur.... But thats just me (and I am classy as it gets).

I actually agree with you that the fish are opportunistic and many of them just want to eat when things come to their attention. If you notice in a lot of my flies I tie with Orange thread, for that reason. I have a stupid theory that the fish might see that little orange whip finish and it might get hot and bothered. We all have those little things we do. However, When we are sight fishing for cutthroat we rely on the fish to respond to food, not opportunity. Two weeks ago, we could see the fish stacked up in a pocket on a shallow estuary (it was actually one of the coolest days I've ever had), and they would refuse flies until we tossed shrimp at them. They wanted shrimp drifted to them like we were redfishing in Florida. We could watch every strike. Those were not opportunistic fish, and they were bigger fish. So I think there is a lot of missed opportunity in over simplifying cutthroat fishing as well. In the end we are trying to have a really fun time. I spent years fishing the same two flies for cutthroat and had a ton of fun. However, as we learn new "tricks" as anglers, I think the box grows deeper and I personally went to a more direct match the hatch approach to fly tying and cutthroat fishing.

My journey in flatwings started because of Avid Angler advertising a class... I saw Ryan's email and thought the fly looked awesome, I couldn't afford the class due to being young fishing guide time and consistently being robbed by the devil (I believe the devil has been mentioned on here a few times in the last few years). Then Jack Devilin... forgive me if that is not his correct last name showed me a few tricks on how to tie them, which I butchered for about 6 Months (they looked like sand lance colored Pac Man characters). Then I read a couple books from Kenny Abrams and asked Brita for some advise on how to keel them correctly. That was far before we were together. I constantly am trying to improve on the skill. I feel like these are the most technically demanding saltwater patterns I've seen tied, if you do them traditionally and well. However, I am much more interested in the adaptations that folks are doing with them. To think Scandinavian tiers are adapting them to their fisheries is pretty cool considering "traditional" patterns typically come from that side of the Atlantic.

I like tying flat wings because when we are done with the vise we can look at it and think "damn, that looks like a..." and Brita and I have a very different style of flat wing that we like to tie and fish. All of the flat wing fly tiers that are talented do it a bit different from each other. I can look at Jonathan Ternald's, Brita's, Andrew Grillos, and Henrik Nielsen and name the tier who goes with each fly. Each pattern will have their tells on who tied it. Jonathan Ternald has this super EURO classic smoothness to his, Brita has a very bold modern and traditional blend to hers. Andrews will make me jealous and want to get cool tattoos (most under appreciated modern tier and least self promoting tier I can think of). I just dig Henriks style on his, very uniform and fishy looking. I'm a true fan of the design. One of the things I like about it is that like Intruders for steelhead, they were designed to fill a need and became something of a blue print rather than a pattern. I feel Brita did something beautiful when she took it and made her Steelhead Prawn Flatwings, and shrimp patterns. It's a beautiful art form tying flies, and it might sound corny or whatever, but I love it.

All that being said, I also like tying funky shit that gets fish to eat and experimenting. I just really like the way a flatwing or traditional style baitfish moves and think it really is the perfect baitfish pattern.. Obviously both methods work.

By the way the Squimp is a cool fly, it's complete, its impressionistic, I think its a cool funky fly. I had one in my box that I found in the parking lot of a fly shop for two years before I learned its origins. Mark did good on that one. It's simple, yet very thoughtful.

I propose a Jungle Cock Flat Wing Fly Swap 2018. They will be judged in the swim tank and in Puget Sound, preferably for coho.
If you want to do it I will head it, limit it to 6 people, sponsor WFF so I don't get in trouble (I was not anticipating talking about this sorry guys), and throw in swag/ fly tying samples to everyone who participates. However I wont have time to until March to even think about it, with the fly tying competition, the Fly Fishing Show, a new puppy and a couple other projects for the summer. March will be breathing time (yeah right)/guide season and I can make it a little more fun than a regular fly swap.

Cheers.

PS Nick stop by the booth at the Fly Fishing Show and I'll mix you a show cocktail.

Ps...Ps... If you work for the show, Don't look in my Yeti and bitch about my show cocktails they are for scientific use only.

Ps...ps...ps... If Nick was right about my needing to hold up a image, ignore my comments about the show cocktails.

ps...ps...ps... ps... If anyone wants to see some rad flat-wings stop by the booth and say "nick ties shitty flies" and I'll put you in a raffle for a half dozen with Jungle Cock Eyes. ;)
 
#41
I'll be at the show and I'll definitely come find you so we can hug it out :) I don't take any of this internet shit too seriously, so don't worry I'm not gonna come find you at the show and want to meet at the big oak tree afterwards lol. Like I said I am sure we'd have a blast fishing together! No hard feelings with me at all.

Not new to tying. I received my first fly rod for my 15th birthday in August, and received a fly tying kit the following Christmas. So I've been tying for..... 22 ish years now. Though I didn't get heavily into it until the last dozen years or so. Prior to that it was just a casual thing for me. But you're right, definitely not a commercial tyer by any means.

I think in the end we are a lot closer to agreeing on a lot of this than disagreeing. We just see things a bit differently. That's one thing I love about this fishery, there is room for all of us to do it our own way. Leland can fish his poppers, Delia can fish his squids, you guys can fish your flatwings, and I will quietly take inspiration from all of you and tie my own kooky shit. (And for the record, I totally agree with your thoughts about flat wings... A well tied flat wing is as beautiful of a fly as I can think of, and nothing moves quite like it! ) We will all catch fish doing it our own way. I just prefer to do things differently.

That's pretty cool about those fish wanting shrimp. I've experience similar situations a few times and it can be maddening until you figure out what they want. That's why I said finding the fish is 90% of the battle 90% of the time. It's that other 10% of the time that truly keeps us on our toes and keeps it interesting.

And I'm not one hundred percent in the "archer, not the arrow" camp. This last year I've started tying most of my SRC clousers with rubber legs. Just something I thought I'd try one day, but then not long after that I experienced a day where I only had the single rubber legged fly in my box. I was fishing it, and my buddy was fishing the exact same fly, exact same size, exact same materials, tied by me even, but minus the rubber legs. Probably a half dozen times we watched fish swim right past his fly to come eat the one with rubber legs. No idea why they wanted that one that day, but I saw first hand that they had a preference. I only had the one fly tied that way so of course I just had to catch all the fish that day :) That is the great thing about fishing from a boat, you're able to view this things that you can't see from the beach very often.

BTW I was not at all attacking your image or calling you arrogant. Simply stating that a certain amount of that is necessary, IMO, for a guide. You have to know what you're doing, and be confident in that. If you're not clients are going to pick up on that. So in that case I don't at all look at that as a negative, but rather an important part of the job. You seem to really focus on having fun on the water, and I really dig that. At the end of the day this is fishing, and if you can't have fun fishing then there is something wrong. I very much like that approach and respect that.





I certainly did not mean to be a dick either. I'll make you a cocktail at the Fly Fishing Show and a hug if you would like. I don't want to be another #metoo.

I am fairly safe on the image thing...

My point was not that you tie shit flies, I believe you said you were fairly new to tying not that long ago. Even if you are not new, your not a commercial fly tier and you are catching fish. However, the point was that there are in fact reasons some fly designs that fish better in some situations. Which to me, seems like a very straight forward thing. Jungle Cock on the fly doesn't make it reach out and do magic tricks, however it does negate the idea of putting a thick epoxy head on. A thick epoxy head does not make it sink like lead eyes, but in a shallow water situation when you are fishing juvenile baitfish, it will sink faster than the type of strip you would want to fish. If eyes are a must, this is a damn good time to use jungle cock. Plus the stuff just looks super good. Particularly paired with polar bear and seal fur.... But thats just me (and I am classy as it gets).

I actually agree with you that the fish are opportunistic and many of them just want to eat when things come to their attention. If you notice in a lot of my flies I tie with Orange thread, for that reason. I have a stupid theory that the fish might see that little orange whip finish and it might get hot and bothered. We all have those little things we do. However, When we are sight fishing for cutthroat we rely on the fish to respond to food, not opportunity. Two weeks ago, we could see the fish stacked up in a pocket on a shallow estuary (it was actually one of the coolest days I've ever had), and they would refuse flies until we tossed shrimp at them. They wanted shrimp drifted to them like we were redfishing in Florida. We could watch every strike. Those were not opportunistic fish, and they were bigger fish. So I think there is a lot of missed opportunity in over simplifying cutthroat fishing as well. In the end we are trying to have a really fun time. I spent years fishing the same two flies for cutthroat and had a ton of fun. However, as we learn new "tricks" as anglers, I think the box grows deeper and I personally went to a more direct match the hatch approach to fly tying and cutthroat fishing.

My journey in flatwings started because of Avid Angler advertising a class... I saw Ryan's email and thought the fly looked awesome, I couldn't afford the class due to being young fishing guide time and consistently being robbed by the devil (I believe the devil has been mentioned on here a few times in the last few years). Then Jack Devilin... forgive me if that is not his correct last name showed me a few tricks on how to tie them, which I butchered for about 6 Months (they looked like sand lance colored Pac Man characters). Then I read a couple books from Kenny Abrams and asked Brita for some advise on how to keel them correctly. That was far before we were together. I constantly am trying to improve on the skill. I feel like these are the most technically demanding saltwater patterns I've seen tied, if you do them traditionally and well. However, I am much more interested in the adaptations that folks are doing with them. To think Scandinavian tiers are adapting them to their fisheries is pretty cool considering "traditional" patterns typically come from that side of the Atlantic.

I like tying flat wings because when we are done with the vise we can look at it and think "damn, that looks like a..." and Brita and I have a very different style of flat wing that we like to tie and fish. All of the flat wing fly tiers that are talented do it a bit different from each other. I can look at Jonathan Ternald's, Brita's, Andrew Grillos, and Henrik Nielsen and name the tier who goes with each fly. Each pattern will have their tells on who tied it. Jonathan Ternald has this super EURO classic smoothness to his, Brita has a very bold modern and traditional blend to hers. Andrews will make me jealous and want to get cool tattoos (most under appreciated modern tier and least self promoting tier I can think of). I just dig Henriks style on his, very uniform and fishy looking. I'm a true fan of the design. One of the things I like about it is that like Intruders for steelhead, they were designed to fill a need and became something of a blue print rather than a pattern. I feel Brita did something beautiful when she took it and made her Steelhead Prawn Flatwings, and shrimp patterns. It's a beautiful art form tying flies, and it might sound corny or whatever, but I love it.

All that being said, I also like tying funky shit that gets fish to eat and experimenting. I just really like the way a flatwing or traditional style baitfish moves and think it really is the perfect baitfish pattern.. Obviously both methods work.

By the way the Squimp is a cool fly, it's complete, its impressionistic, I think its a cool funky fly. I had one in my box that I found in the parking lot of a fly shop for two years before I learned its origins. Mark did good on that one. It's simple, yet very thoughtful.



If you want to do it I will head it, limit it to 6 people, sponsor WFF so I don't get in trouble (I was not anticipating talking about this sorry guys), and throw in swag/ fly tying samples to everyone who participates. However I wont have time to until March to even think about it, with the fly tying competition, the Fly Fishing Show, a new puppy and a couple other projects for the summer. March will be breathing time (yeah right)/guide season and I can make it a little more fun than a regular fly swap.

Cheers.

PS Nick stop by the booth at the Fly Fishing Show and I'll mix you a show cocktail.

Ps...Ps... If you work for the show, Don't look in my Yeti and bitch about my show cocktails they are for scientific use only.

Ps...ps...ps... If Nick was right about my needing to hold up a image, ignore my comments about the show cocktails.

ps...ps...ps... ps... If anyone wants to see some rad flat-wings stop by the booth and say "nick ties shitty flies" and I'll put you in a raffle for a half dozen with Jungle Cock Eyes. ;)
 

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