Multi-Density Scandi heads

SpeySpaz

still an authority on nothing
#16
Try a spiral pickup, Grube. Sounds like the head might be slightly on the long side.
For a 13'er you'll find 2.5x rod length is easier.
Dan is dead on correct about tip flex, and a shorter head helps take away some of the pain.
Slow, slow shotgun lift.
 

the_grube

Active Member
#17
Ya, I think a 38' 3d scandi at 525gr is a bit much for my 7130 SageX. Although, I'm amazed at how well it does cast this line once I get everything in the air. The RIO 3d scandi's come in at 32'; probably a better fit for this rod. I'll keep these Usts for my upcoming 8140 purchase -- springers are heading this way in May :)..

On another note, my off-shoulder single spey sucks... I need to fix it or figure out how to throw that left-handed....
 

4sallypat

Active Member
#18
Thanks Dan, good info. The 3d I'm using is casting fine when I do my part correctly. It's just the lift. With my 7130 I can't lift straight into the cast; have to throw an extra roll and then start the single spey. If I'm shooting line the lift is easier, retrieving the shooting line seems to bring the head up a bit. This line is making me a better caster; much smaller margin for error than a typical scandi or skagit head IMO. There will be a 7140 or 8140 in my future, but I want to figure this thing out completely before I solve it with new gear.
How my instructor taught me to lift a longer line for a single spey:
Lift with a 20 degree backward angle upwards, then sweep across with a dish pan sized drop mid sweep to pull all the line out and then anchor in front to the right about a rod length out.

I did this with a 63' head and it works well - makes the line feel shorter because the extra "back" lift and dish droop during the sweep pulls all the line out and makes for a easy casting line as everything becomes aerialized.
 
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4sallypat

Active Member
#19
Ya, I think a 38' 3d scandi at 525gr is a bit much for my 7130 SageX. Although, I'm amazed at how well it does cast this line once I get everything in the air. The RIO 3d scandi's come in at 32'; probably a better fit for this rod. I'll keep these Usts for my upcoming 8140 purchase -- springers are heading this way in May :)..

On another note, my off-shoulder single spey sucks... I need to fix it or figure out how to throw that left-handed....
Funny - I have the same issue with longer heads - my 63' mid belly line I can't cast cack handed.
I have to change hands and cast with my non dominant hand.

But short skagit and scandi compact heads I can cast cack handed better than my dominant side.
Very bizarre!
 

SpeySpaz

still an authority on nothing
#20
Ya, I think a 38' 3d scandi at 525gr is a bit much for my 7130 SageX. Although, I'm amazed at how well it does cast this line once I get everything in the air. The RIO 3d scandi's come in at 32'; probably a better fit for this rod. I'll keep these Usts for my upcoming 8140 purchase -- springers are heading this way in May :)..

On another note, my off-shoulder single spey sucks... I need to fix it or figure out how to throw that left-handed....
back handed or cach handed, 32' should make it much easier for you, and a slightly shorter leader than usual if you're working in tight quarters (less bullwhipping into grass and branches etc).
I live in Pierce county if you need help with your non-dominant side casts.
 

SpeySpaz

still an authority on nothing
#21
Funny - I have the same issue with longer heads - my 63' mid belly line I can't cast cack handed.
I have to change hands and cast with my non dominant hand.

But short skagit and scandi compact heads I can cast cack handed better than my dominant side.
Very bizarre!
This is often due to the physical limit imposed by a cach cast, where you get a high stop and good rod position as your shoulder stops the sweep with the rod in great position for a clean forward stroke and a nice high stop.

For the 63'er, try putting more energy into the sweep and poke a hole in the sky at the end of the sweep. No dipping. A lot of longer bellies die during the sweep due to energy lost or misdirected. When mild, it'll cause you to compensate by hitting it harder, giving you a tailing loop or ugly top leg. When severe, the energy loss kills the cast stone dead.
 

Dan Page

Active Member
#22
When one fishes smaller rivers with obstructions around you at almost every turn you learn to invent casts that work or you do not get to present a fly the way you would like to. All in all its about loading the rod in a position that will let you unload it in the direction you wish to propel your fly. It can be a challenge and at times frustrating to make this happen. You will be surprised with what you can come up with to get a fly out there. Persistence pays off.
I love the big rivers with the big rods, but the little rivers with all their obstructions and crazy currents have taught me things I never would have gotten. Still working on it and still learning after a couple decades at this!
 

SpeySpaz

still an authority on nothing
#24
How my instructor taught me to lift a longer line for a single spey:
Lift with a 20 degree backward angle upwards, then sweep across with a dish pan sized drop mid sweep to pull all the line out and then anchor in front to the right about a rod length out.

I did this with a 63' head and it works well - makes the line feel shorter because the extra "back" lift and dish droop during the sweep pulls all the line out and makes for a easy casting line as everything becomes aerialized.
Assuming you mean a single from river left, right hand up.
This is OK, but when you start getting into the upper half of the envelope you might find this technique working against you, as a crash anchor is often the result. This technique is often taught to help the newer caster to obtain more reliable anchoring- which is good, fun and OK- and later on, creates problems you need to train your way out of, which is also good, fun and OK.
You can use this technique if you become aware during the sweep that you have too much steam on and have to get the line down fast to avoid late anchor or blown anchor. I use it sometimes with the cut cast because, well, I'm lazy and it's easy and I'm usually not seeking big yardage with a square cut.
 

the_grube

Active Member
#26
Great stuff on this thread, appreciate all the input. SpeySpaz, the short leader is dead on. I'm fishing 5' of poly and as little as 12'' of level tippet with unweighted flies. Dan, I found myself doing something between a perry-poke and a snake roll this morning on river right with obstructions behind me and a wind blowing from upstream. 4Sally, Simon G. in his book using a skiing analogy for the SS lift and sweep -- it sounds like the 'dish' you're instructor told you. I'd love to try a mid-belly some day.

So, I went out this morning with my 7130 and a 38' UST in F/I/S2 to fish some relatively shallow water (2-4') in the early morning light. I fixed 2 things with my cast: 1) I was dumping the rod tip behind me, 2) I added 12" of hang-down to remove some load on the rod. Bingo. Not anything that will merit a you-tube video, but very fishy straight and true casts going out in the 65-75' range. Best of all, I managed to hook about a 5lb chromer this morning, but, alas it was only a 10sec dance and off it went: threw the hook on it's first jump and left me with wet waders inside and out....

IMO, this 3d line was a big part of hooking this fish. I live 10min from this hole and fished it 4 times this week. I had trouble with a skagit head/tip system getting the swing down in the zone w/o crapping out on the hang-down. This line put me in the zone, and crawled through it like my 1-ton in 4wd low-range. The downside to the 3d lines, IMO, is that they aren't as versatile as a floating head and tip system. They wont throw big hardware, and you pretty much have to match the sink-rate to the water you're fishing. When you get that dialed in; they are fishy as all getout....
 

golfman44

5-Time Puget Sound Steelhead Guide of the Year
#28
My friend got me hooked on these a while ago and they are pretty much all I fish now when a floater isn't appropriate. They cast very well, dig deep, and swing slow. Plus, they are much more fun to cast than a skagit. That said, they aren't a magic bullet or anything -- there are certainly times when they are a superior tool, but also a bunch of scenarios where a skagit is still king and these lines suck. Don't buy them because you think you'll hit the river and immediately catch more fish - they fish differently and take a while to get used to.

Rio has already put out a 3d single hand line which fishes well, and I expect in a year or two most line companies will turn a bunch of their sink tip lines into this style.
 
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#29
I just ordered a float hover S3 from Madison River Fishing Company for $19.95. I figured that for that type of close out price, I could afford giving it a try. If you are like me and wanted to try one but didn’t want to spend much $ on something that you might not like...give MRFC a look.
 

the_grube

Active Member
#30
I just ordered a float hover S3 from Madison River Fishing Company for $19.95. I figured that for that type of close out price, I could afford giving it a try. If you are like me and wanted to try one but didn’t want to spend much $ on something that you might not like...give MRFC a look.
Wow, I just got an s1/s2 in 7/8 shipped for $30.00; regular $70.00 retail list price. Thanks for the tip.
 

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