What is too warm?

Old Man

Just an Old Man
#31
Nothing is too warm here in the Butte area. The temps have been quite low this summer. It's 50 degrees tonight, and that is the high for today. Plus it's cold outside.
 

Salmo_g

Well-Known Member
#32
Too warm to fish over stockers? Lol Seriously? Now we're just looking for things to worry about.
I disagree. We pay for lakes to be stocked with the hope of creating quality fishing. If we fish when the lake warms up and we kill most of the fish we hook or catch, those fish won't be there in the fall when the water cools and quality fishing could again be available. It isn't always the case that only a wild trout is too valuable to be caught just once. Hatchery fish stocked to make for good spring fishing can also provide us with good fall fishing if they are still alive then.

Sg
 
#33
What lakes are you referring to? Pass, Cady and Munn? Everybody pays for stocked fish.....even in cool water I rarely keep any trout. Try to persuade the bait fisherman who also pays for stocked fish...just sayin.
 

Smalma

Active Member
#34
Salmo g.

I think that as "dinosaurs" that have recently re-entered the lowland lake fishing game you and I have miss read where the fly fishing is coming from in their management desires. Based on what I have read on this site I had assumed that a major interest was the development and maintaining of fisheries with access to "quality" (larger) fish with reason catch rates. Typically the management tools used to create those kinds of fisheries has been lower planting levels (yielding faster growth rates) and limited harvest (dead fish) through gear restrictions, strict CnR, or low bag limits with larger size limits. It appears that the majority of the community desires those types of management approach but seem less inclined to walk that talk when it comes to their own fisheries.

Just fun I took a closer look at one of the lakes I have been fishing - Pass Lake and its management. In response to angler concerns about the quality of the trout available; larger and more robust fish WDFW has made some management adjustments. Those adjustments took the form of reducing the number of trout planted. Just looking at the rainbow program that lake is now planted with 5,000 fry last spring (about a month ago). As of early June this year those fish were 14 to 16 inches long and decent mix of larger carry-overs. While those fish were strong and active unfortunately the reduced planting levels the standing crop of available trout. My best guess is that given the planting levels and high survival rates that current standing crop is likely less than 2,500 rainbows. Just for the heck let's assume that anglers fishing during the warm water periods might be killing a single trout a day due to elevated stress. Over an expected warm water period of 90 days with an angler effort of 5 to 10 anglers/day we could expect to see an reduction in that standing crop of 18 to 36% above and beyond normal mortalities. Apparently those losses are not of significant concern.

Clearly having develop a conservation ethic of the last 50 years fishing on wild salmonid population had colored my view when it came to fisheries support by hatchery production; even those gear to producing higher quality fisheries. This thread has been educational and I'm glad I asked the question and will spend my energy/time on other issues.

While I will not speak for you it is clear on this and other issues this "dinosaur" is out of step with much of the fly fishing community.

Curt
 

Irafly

Indi "Ira" Jones
#36
I disagree. We pay for lakes to be stocked with the hope of creating quality fishing. If we fish when the lake warms up and we kill most of the fish we hook or catch, those fish won't be there in the fall when the water cools and quality fishing could again be available. It isn't always the case that only a wild trout is too valuable to be caught just once. Hatchery fish stocked to make for good spring fishing can also provide us with good fall fishing if they are still alive then.

Sg
We don't pay for quality lakes though. We pay the same as everyone else. I'd be willing to pay more for access to quality waters, thus the Private Lakes thread. Don't get me wrong, I love our quality lakes and for the money, I think the state is getting a deal on them.

Salmo g.

I think that as "dinosaurs" that have recently re-entered the lowland lake fishing game you and I have miss read where the fly fishing is coming from in their management desires. Based on what I have read on this site I had assumed that a major interest was the development and maintaining of fisheries with access to "quality" (larger) fish with reason catch rates. Typically the management tools used to create those kinds of fisheries has been lower planting levels (yielding faster growth rates) and limited harvest (dead fish) through gear restrictions, strict CnR, or low bag limits with larger size limits. It appears that the majority of the community desires those types of management approach but seem less inclined to walk that talk when it comes to their own fisheries.

Just fun I took a closer look at one of the lakes I have been fishing - Pass Lake and its management. In response to angler concerns about the quality of the trout available; larger and more robust fish WDFW has made some management adjustments. Those adjustments took the form of reducing the number of trout planted. Just looking at the rainbow program that lake is now planted with 5,000 fry last spring (about a month ago). As of early June this year those fish were 14 to 16 inches long and decent mix of larger carry-overs. While those fish were strong and active unfortunately the reduced planting levels the standing crop of available trout. My best guess is that given the planting levels and high survival rates that current standing crop is likely less than 2,500 rainbows. Just for the heck let's assume that anglers fishing during the warm water periods might be killing a single trout a day due to elevated stress. Over an expected warm water period of 90 days with an angler effort of 5 to 10 anglers/day we could expect to see an reduction in that standing crop of 18 to 36% above and beyond normal mortalities. Apparently those losses are not of significant concern.

Clearly having develop a conservation ethic of the last 50 years fishing on wild salmonid population had colored my view when it came to fisheries support by hatchery production; even those gear to producing higher quality fisheries. This thread has been educational and I'm glad I asked the question and will spend my energy/time on other issues.

While I will not speak for you it is clear on this and other issues this "dinosaur" is out of step with much of the fly fishing community.

Curt

The thing is, I just don't think the impact of fishing in warmer water is as significant as people think it is. And I think that is what we are trying to say here. Not that we don't value the resources. I've worked hard to find studies on survival impacts on lakes, but every study I have found deals with rivers that don't have thermoclines. The one study that I've seen people use for catch and release mortality as it relates to water temps, had the fish caught and kept in a side pool on a river system. The fish had no means by which to find higher oxygenated water. I'm not saying there isn't a mortality, but statistically I just don't believe it is any more significant than any other time of the year. I'd be happy to change my mind if the evidence provided were more than just anecdotal.
 

Buzzy

Active Member
#37
We don't pay for quality lakes though. We pay the same as everyone else. I'd be willing to pay more for access to quality waters, thus the Private Lakes thread. Don't get me wrong, I love our quality lakes and for the money, I think the state is getting a deal on them.




The thing is, I just don't think the impact of fishing in warmer water is as significant as people think it is. And I think that is what we are trying to say here. Not that we don't value the resources. I've worked hard to find studies on survival impacts on lakes, but every study I have found deals with rivers that don't have thermoclines. The one study that I've seen people use for catch and release mortality as it relates to water temps, had the fish caught and kept in a side pool on a river system. The fish had no means by which to find higher oxygenated water. I'm not saying there isn't a mortality, but statistically I just don't believe it is any more significant than any other time of the year. I'd be happy to change my mind if the evidence provided were more than just anecdotal.
Ira -
Probably 20+ years ago I took the afternoon off from work and hiked into the east end of Lenice. I waded across the inlet and out onto the bar the stream formed. In all honestly, I don't remember what month it was but it was hot outside so probably "summer". I pitched out a "SWW" (our secret name for San Juan Worm at Rocky Ford) and hooked a fish. I don't beat around with hooked trout, I get 'em in as quickly as possible. I released the trout, it swam off to the middle of the crick, turned belly up and sank to the bottom. SH--! Anomaly? A cast or two later and an exact duplicate. I stopped fishing. Two dead trout. No way to try and revive them unless I went snorkeling.

A couple of arguments against my point. The inlet was shallow, there was a bit of current. No thermoclines set up, that's for sure. But my guess is the water temperature was the prime culprit (other than me, that is). DO? Maybe. Too small of a sampling to have scientific value: yes. And indication that water temperature played a role? I think so, I believe so.

Peace, bro. Headed to one of our favorite stillwaters Tuesday - am I being hypocritical? Maybe. This particular stillwater does have springs and does have cooler water deep. Have my switchrod ready and a brand new Iracator for the 30 foot leader.
 

Salmo_g

Well-Known Member
#38
Ira,

Yes, all fishing license buyers pay the same, and WDFW manages some lakes for higher quality fishing than others, based in part on angler input. In addition, some of us do pay more than others in the case where my local fly fishing club pays WDFW to stock additional and larger trout in Munn Lake. Like a lot of lowland lakes, it is shallow and gets warm in the summer. Trout can survive only because of some groundwater springs that feed it. I don't fish it during the summer, but some anglers do because it also offers good bass and crappie fishing. My point is that every trout that survives the summer is an additional 3 or 4" larger come fall, and can provide some very rewarding fishing.

As for fishing mortality, I don't know what the rates are. However it's nearly impossible to kill a trout through lactic acid build up when the water temperature is 50* or lower, but somewhere around 70* it becomes difficult to avoid that excessive acid build up. I've read that 68* might be a good cut off for avoiding mortality from fishing, but I don't know for sure. I do know that I had one experience of good trout fishing where I wasn't paying attention to the temperature until I noticed that several trout I caught were laying on the bottom of the small lake I was fishing. So I took the water temperature, and it read 72*. I'm pretty good at handling fish safely, so I took that result to mean that trout can die from lactic acid build up very rapidly when the water is 72*. So I make a point to avoid fishing for trout in water that is 70* or higher. If I was fishing for the skillet, I guess it wouldn't matter, but I rarely keep trout.
 

Irafly

Indi "Ira" Jones
#39
Ira,

Yes, all fishing license buyers pay the same, and WDFW manages some lakes for higher quality fishing than others, based in part on angler input. In addition, some of us do pay more than others in the case where my local fly fishing club pays WDFW to stock additional and larger trout in Munn Lake. Like a lot of lowland lakes, it is shallow and gets warm in the summer. Trout can survive only because of some groundwater springs that feed it. I don't fish it during the summer, but some anglers do because it also offers good bass and crappie fishing. My point is that every trout that survives the summer is an additional 3 or 4" larger come fall, and can provide some very rewarding fishing.

As for fishing mortality, I don't know what the rates are. However it's nearly impossible to kill a trout through lactic acid build up when the water temperature is 50* or lower, but somewhere around 70* it becomes difficult to avoid that excessive acid build up. I've read that 68* might be a good cut off for avoiding mortality from fishing, but I don't know for sure. I do know that I had one experience of good trout fishing where I wasn't paying attention to the temperature until I noticed that several trout I caught were laying on the bottom of the small lake I was fishing. So I took the water temperature, and it read 72*. I'm pretty good at handling fish safely, so I took that result to mean that trout can die from lactic acid build up very rapidly when the water is 72*. So I make a point to avoid fishing for trout in water that is 70* or higher. If I was fishing for the skillet, I guess it wouldn't matter, but I rarely keep trout.
I avoid trout in the warmer water as well, and anecdotal evidence does not make the evidence invalid, but I won't feel guilty if I happen to be at Pass for a day and the surface temp is 70 degrees. Every lake is different.
 

Smalma

Active Member
#40
Ira -
Could not agree more that every lake is different! I had been told by reliable sources that both Pass (the example lake for this discussion) and Lone lake do not normally form a thermocline; being too shallow. Being one that likes to check such things out and this being the first season that I consistently fished either Lone or Pass I monitored the temperature profiles of both since early May. As I mentioned in my first post last week more than 1/2 of the water volume in Pass was 70 degrees or more and the rest was between 66 and 69 degrees with no evidence of a thermocline. In short there did not appear to be any cool oxygenated refugia available to the trout in either lake once they warmed.

I suspect that the information on temperature stress and related mortality that you have found on streams would be a fair representative of what you might expect on Pass. The only difference between Pass and say the Stillaguamish is that the Pass would not provide the consistent oxygenation provided from the riffles that streams provide, the diurnal temperature swings one see on streams (cooler temperatures in early mornings hours) and fewer site specific temperature refuge from spring seeps and/or tributaries.

BTW -
A salmonid that is accustomed to the cool waters of a deep lake thermocline (temperature typically in the low to mid 50 degree range) that experience prolong stress in temperatures that maybe 20 degrees or more than accustomed temperature can be experience higher handling mortalities; and in some cases mortalities higher than if they were accustomed to temperatures that were closer to the surface temperatures.

But as others have posted the choice is and should be driven by individual angler ethic. I just asked what choices other anglers were making and attempted to provide information to aid those who had not made a determination of there was decision point in their temperature consideration in making informed decisions.

In regard to my personal choice I recognize that the trout in lakes are typically of stocked origin and am willing risk impacts from my handling of fish at temperatures that are several degrees warmer than am willing to fish in streams on wild trout.

Curt
 
#41
Don't know what all the fuss is about stocked trout, i'm living the dream!
sketch-1529881858374.png
Drove 750 kilometers North today & fished a salmon river for wild salmon!
sketch-1529881818299.png
Picture was taken after midnight, didn't catch anything & only seen 2 jump over a few hours, maybe they should start stocking them!?!
 
#42
So is there any evidence whatsoever that not fishing over stockers in warm water results in better quality fishing later, or is this all just wishful thinking?
 

Vladimir Steblina

Retired Forester...now fishing instead of working
#43
Just because there is a thermocline, doesn’t mean that fish can live in it!!

Way back in my college biology class I had to pick a field project related to biology. So in the pursuit of science, I decided to sample temperature and oxygen at various depths from late winter into late spring.

This was in the days before sensors.....so I actually had to put all the chemicals into a rowboat and titrate the stuff by “sucking” it up the tube on a rickety boat.

Anyway, fairly quickly towards the end of spring the oxygen just disappeared from the area below the thermocline and the oxygen in the thermocline was marginal. Not sure how the lakes in eastern Washington do on temperature/oxygen over the summer. However, I would not be surprised if it goes to zero in the cooler water.

Cabela’s use to see for a couple hundred dollars a remote temp/ oxygen sensor but I cannot find one anymore. Oh well, I would rather have a Ekman dredge for that price.
 

Klickrolf

Active Member
#44
Just because there is a thermocline, doesn’t mean that fish can live in it!!

Way back in my college biology class I had to pick a field project related to biology. So in the pursuit of science, I decided to sample temperature and oxygen at various depths from late winter into late spring.

This was in the days before sensors.....so I actually had to put all the chemicals into a rowboat and titrate the stuff by “sucking” it up the tube on a rickety boat.

Anyway, fairly quickly towards the end of spring the oxygen just disappeared from the area below the thermocline and the oxygen in the thermocline was marginal. Not sure how the lakes in eastern Washington do on temperature/oxygen over the summer. However, I would not be surprised if it goes to zero in the cooler water.

Cabela’s use to see for a couple hundred dollars a remote temp/ oxygen sensor but I cannot find one anymore. Oh well, I would rather have a Ekman dredge for that price.
Well, of course the bottom water, regardless of temp can't maintain O2 concentrations, it has no access to the surface where O2 can be obtained. Unless a lake gets good turnover from wind or some other source the deep water will be almost void of fish. Different species have very different requirements, trout are very dependent on O2. Unless groundwater provides additional O2 the deep water won't be useful for fish like trout, bullheads maybe.
 

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