NFR Flu Shots – yes or no?

Your entire post is a lie.

everything i said about the vaccine was from the CDC and fully understood

In a nutshell. the vaccine can reduce symptoms but sucks at prevention.

I actually have no interest in the issue until people start saying it's immoral to not get a flu shot which is what has occurred here.
Proof that you don't understand anything about the vaccine^^^^
 

Rob Allen

Active Member
Rob, I'm pulling out this quote as your latest example of how your statements of absolutes get you cross-wise with both logic and fact. I do not devalue personal liberty, but stay with me a few moments and see if you agree with the logic.

The paramount, or number one reason why human beings group together to form societies and civilizations is mutual aid and protection. They and we do this because it's more efficient and sometimes simply makes things possible to do in groups than a solitary person can do. This includes hunting, gathering, making shelter, and protecting each other from predators and enemies. This has been true since Caveman societies to today where we have advanced civilizations with cities, roads, schools, military, and a host of other attributes of civilization. Now, if personal liberty were the paramount value, or concept as you called it, you would have to dissociate yourself from citizenship of this and all countries and states, be an anarchist, and rely solely on yourself for every living need. To the extent that you agree to be a citizen and live in civilization, you compromise some amount of your personal liberty, as does everyone else, in order to get along together, and basically derive the many benefits of "'mutual aid and protection." What we do in the U.S. is try to maintain more personal liberty than other nations do, but we try to maintain that liberty while also obtaining as many of the benefits of society and civilization as we can, without giving up too much of that liberty.

Where that line is, between liberty and society is fuzzy because individuals vary in their interpretation. This makes it the legitimate topic of intelligent debate, discourse, and even disagreement. You describe it in your usual black and white, no gray, style of absolutism, even while you yourself are absolutely dependent on giving up some degree of liberty in order to enjoy the beneficial attributes of your American lifestyle. You have to obey laws decided by a majority that you might disagree with personally, but were adopted by society (us) for the "greater good" because you cannot exist on your own without. You see, I'm not saying that personal liberty is unimportant. It's just that it cannot be the absolute paramount value since you cannot survive without some of the attributes of society. No human can.

I agree with that Salmo. I would only say that we have already passed the point at which laws have already infringed upon our personal liberties too much and any further laws are contributing to tyranny.
When you start saying things like people are going to die because you don't get a flu shot they are essentially calling you a murderer. Murderers belong in prison therefore anyone who doesn't get a fly shot should be in prison. That's a simple logical conclusion.

Lets look at an unrelated issue here for a moment. Hunting predator animals with dogs.
It's illegal in Washington state. Made illegal by a majority vote of the state.
people who don't like hunting with dogs got the majority to believe that it was cruel and inhumane, which is untrue at worse and at best subjective. As a result of the majority against a small minority people cannot pursue something they are passionate about something that was a family tradition and something that was used to great affect so control predator populations. Now in some areas there are too many predators and deer populations are in decline . The majority in this instance was incorrect and oppressive in nature and most of that majority doesn't really care if dogs are used for hunting. Whether someone hunts with a dog or not is none one anyone else's business.

We all need to examine our agendas and determine is it it for the common good or is it just what we want, and if it's the latter seek ways other than using the law and the degradation of our opponents to get what we want.
You know well how guilty i was of this over in Ifish regarding hatcheries, maybe that is why i am so sensitive to it now.
if i am black and white on anything it's on not wanting to tell other people how to live or that they are bad for choosing to live that way. 1. because i am no better than anyone else and 2 because for the purpose of living as a society good and bad are subjective even if i believe there are objective truths. It's huge to differentiate between having a debate about what is right and wrong or that there is a right and wrong and developing public policy based on issues of right and wrong are that are debatable. I am happy to do the former unhappy to do the latter.
 
bologna the CDC was very clear and very understandable if you think there is more to it it's in your imagination.. get someone from the CDC on here if you want to take this any further.
My wife is a pediatrician. I have discussed vaccines with her at length and continue to do so regularly. I know this shit very well, Rob. You don't. All you did was browse the CDC site until you found something that you think supports your claims - and then you stopped reading. That's known as confirmation bias. Only looking for things that support your preconceived ideas. Others who have commented on this thread are also in the medical field. They didn't agree with you either.

BTW - this year's flu shot appears to be one of the most effective - so far.
 

Rob Allen

Active Member
My wife is a pediatrician. I have discussed vaccines with her at length and continue to do so regularly. I know this shit very well, Rob. You don't. All you did was browse the CDC site until you found something that you think supports your claims - and then you stopped reading. That's known as confirmation bias. Only looking for things that support your preconceived ideas. Others who have commented on this thread are also in the medical field. They didn't agree with you either.

BTW - this year's flu shot appears to be one of the most effective - so far.

I have no pre concieved ideas..

Like I said get someone on the CDC or i am not interested. Also not interested in your wife's opinion.

I have said nothing false now. Put me on ignore and leave me alone.
 

dflett68

Active Member
When you start saying things like people are going to die because you don't get a flu shot they are essentially calling you a murderer. Murderers belong in prison therefore anyone who doesn't get a fly shot should be in prison. That's a simple logical conclusion....
i believe logical FALLACY is the term you're searching for here rob. that's neither a logical progression, nor a logical conclusion. it may be the way a fascist "reasons", but you'd have to be one to think it was logical.
 
I have no pre concieved ideas..

Like I said get someone on the CDC or i am not interested. Also not interested in your wife's opinion.

I have said nothing false now. Put me on ignore and leave me alone.
I posted the link and a quote from the CDC showing how you misunderstood. You didn't read it, you just went on believing the nonsense you typed. You have repeatedly made false claims on this thread that I and others pointed out. You can't change that. You can go back through every post and see all the false statements you made. Pretty easy for everyone to see.
 
I agree with that Salmo. I would only say that we have already passed the point at which laws have already infringed upon our personal liberties too much and any further laws are contributing to tyranny.
When you start saying things like people are going to die because you don't get a flu shot they are essentially calling you a murderer. Murderers belong in prison therefore anyone who doesn't get a fly shot should be in prison. That's a simple logical conclusion.

Lets look at an unrelated issue here for a moment. Hunting predator animals with dogs.
It's illegal in Washington state. Made illegal by a majority vote of the state.
people who don't like hunting with dogs got the majority to believe that it was cruel and inhumane, which is untrue at worse and at best subjective. As a result of the majority against a small minority people cannot pursue something they are passionate about something that was a family tradition and something that was used to great affect so control predator populations. Now in some areas there are too many predators and deer populations are in decline . The majority in this instance was incorrect and oppressive in nature and most of that majority doesn't really care if dogs are used for hunting. Whether someone hunts with a dog or not is none one anyone else's business.

We all need to examine our agendas and determine is it it for the common good or is it just what we want, and if it's the latter seek ways other than using the law and the degradation of our opponents to get what we want.
You know well how guilty i was of this over in Ifish regarding hatcheries, maybe that is why i am so sensitive to it now.
if i am black and white on anything it's on not wanting to tell other people how to live or that they are bad for choosing to live that way. 1. because i am no better than anyone else and 2 because for the purpose of living as a society good and bad are subjective even if i believe there are objective truths. It's huge to differentiate between having a debate about what is right and wrong or that there is a right and wrong and developing public policy based on issues of right and wrong are that are debatable. I am happy to do the former unhappy to do the latter.
Hope the bar is open...I need a drink after that.
 
Wrong. The vaccine reduces symptoms and mortality of those who still get the flu.

"Some people who get vaccinated may still get sick. However, flu vaccination has been shown in some studies to reduce severity of illness in people who get vaccinated but still get sick. A 2017 study showed that flu vaccination reduced deaths, intensive care unit (ICU) admissions, ICU length of stay, and overall duration of hospitalization among hospitalized flu patients. Another study in 2018 showed that a vaccinated adult who was hospitalized with flu was 59 percent less likely to be admitted to the Intensive Care Unit than someone who had not been vaccinated. Among adults in the ICU with flu, vaccinated patients on average spent 4 fewer days in the hospital than those who were not vaccinated. In addition, it’s important to remember that flu vaccine protects against three or 4 different viruses and multiple viruses usually circulate during any one season. For these reasons, CDC continues to recommend flu vaccination for everyone 6 months and older even if vaccine effectiveness against one or more viruses is reduced."

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/protect/keyfacts.htm
@Rob Allen Here's the information from the CDC - again. You give up now?
 
As a result of the majority against a small minority people cannot pursue something they are passionate about something that was a family tradition and something that was used to great affect so control predator populations. Now in some areas there are too many predators and deer populations are in decline . The majority in this instance was incorrect and oppressive in nature and most of that majority doesn't really care if dogs are used for hunting. Whether someone hunts with a dog or not is none one anyone else's business.
Rob, Here's an example of your absolutism.

Most wildlife biologists agree that as a result of the extirpation or dramatic reduction in predator populations in the western US, deer and elk populations were well above traditional holding capacity. Removal of predators resulted in a surge in ungulate populations, creating a "new normal" that you (and others who are against permitting predator populations returning to more nearly historical levels) take as the 'correct' population level. Ecologists recognize the damage that overpopulation by deer/elk can do without predators. In just about all instances hunting by humans has not adequately simulated the effect of predators in those ecosystems. Those professionals who are knowledgeable about this think the decline in deer and elk populations is closer to the "correct" populations level (of course they probably just flipped a coin about this, since scientists are only right half the time - why do the research?). The initiative to end the use of dogs in hunting may have been to some extent an emotional one, but the effect probably is an ecosystem that is more like the one that all of the plants and animals in it evolved together in. (oops, evolution probably is not on Rob's permitted thought list...)
 

Latest posts