NFR Flu Shots – yes or no?

Stonefish

Triploid, Humpy & Seaplane Hater....Know Grizzler
It's 2018 how can we still be debating about getting flu shots? :)
Shingrix availability are

Brian
If your pharmacy uses Cardinal Health the next expected availability of Shingrix should be around 10/22 to 10/26 ;)
It's 2018 I don't know why people are still having debates about vaccines...

Thanks Lou
I appreciate the info.
Brian
 
It's 2018 how can we still be debating about getting flu shots? :)
Shingrix availability are

Brian
If your pharmacy uses Cardinal Health the next expected availability of Shingrix should be around 10/22 to 10/26 ;)
It's 2018 I don't know why people are still having debates about vaccines...
Checked with our local Costco yesterday, and they are thinking maybe the first of year or even later. Got on a waiting list. There must have been at least six or seven pages on the list both sides of a legal size pad notebook . Thats just at one pharmacy , can only imagine the amount of people on waiting lists .

Have not checked with other pharmacies , but got the feeling its the same everywhere here in Utah, will check ,but not optimistic. 10/22 - 10/26 would be great, but doesn't look good for that here .
 

JayB

Active Member
I appreciate all the feedback. Thanks.

Here’s what I don’t understand. Some here are saying it’s irresponsible NOT to get a flu shot because the unvaccinated infect others endangering them.

Let’s take an example of 100 people. 90 get a flu shot. 10 do not. All 100 are exposed to the virus. The 10 unvaccinated get the flu. How do those 10 adversely effect the health of the 90 who get the vaccine?

For other diseases like measles, I get it. Vaccinations of all people eradicate the disease because it has no hosts and can’t survive. But the flu virus isn’t ever eradicated; it drifts or even mutates. It gets passed from one person to another even those vaccinated.

I understand the flu was largely responsible for ending WWI. There were millions of soldiers living elbow to elbow in wet trenches. Yes, I get that another super bug could kill millions, but that bug would likely mutate far from what the vaccine would protect you from anyway.

The flu vaccine doesn’t create some Star Trek like invisable shield around those vaccinated. It simply exposes the body to an inert virus in order trick your system to respond like it has the real thing, but without the nasty symptoms. So when the person gets exposed to the real deal it’s ready to fight it.

As for the preservatives in the vaccine, some are saying it’s a small amount and can’t hurt you. I read about an EPA hearing where a scientist explained how small doses of radiation are beneficial to humans.

I will likely get the vaccine. I just refuse to line up like a dutiful lemming because the government told me to do so.

I want to be an educated lemming.
There are two reasons. The first is that there are populations out there that can't get vaccinated, like infants, or people with immune systems that are so compromised that they're particularly vulnerable irrespective of whether or not they've been vaccinated, like cancer patients etc.

The second is that even if the vaccine is a particularly good match for that year's flu strain, the efficacy of the vaccine can vary considerably from one person to the next, and even within the same person depending on whether or not they are sick with something else when they get the shot, the amount of physiological strain that they are under, etc. The only way to objectively assess how someone has responded to a particular flu shot is to draw blood and quantitate the concentration of antibodies that their body produced against the flu strain they were vaccinated with, or the "titer" the vaccine produced. It's not uncommon to see a fairly significant variation from one person to the next.

The upshot is that degree of protection that the 90% get from the vaccine will vary quite a bit, and every person who comes down with the flu and becomes contagious - even if they have very mild symptoms - will put everyone that they come in contact with at risk to some degree. If 100% of the vaccine-eligible population gets vaccinated in a given year, the risk will be driven down to the lowest level possible given the tools available to us, and the number of flu-related fatalities will be as low as it can be. Everyone who abstains from getting the flu shot is reducing that level of protection and making a higher body-count a statistical certainty.

At the end of the day, all of this argumentation and data is often less persuasive than stories, and there is no shortage of first-hand testimonials available from, say, parents who had their children die from the flu. If anyone isn't persuaded, I'd hope that plugging "child died from flu" into Youtube, looking at the faces of the dead kids and listening to the anguished testimonials from their parents would flip a switch that abstract reasoning couldn't. I'm admittedly kind of a softy when it comes to that sort of a thing, it makes for mighty tough viewing.

It's an undeniable fact that every person that dies from the flu had to have the virus passed onto them from someone else. We're all free to make our own choices, but I can't understand the ethical reasoning that would lead someone to conclude that reducing the probability that they're going to be the "someone else" that transmits a lethal infection to another human, even if they'll never know their names, and even if the certainty that getting the shot will do so is significantly less than 100%.

Kudos to you for getting the shot this year, even if it's only to protect others.
 
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JayB

Active Member
FWIW I'm probably as healthy as anyone on this forum, got the shot, and got floored by the flu last year. Even when I was taking the max doses of ibuprofen and lying in a cold bath there was a period of a couple of hours when my temp - at least on the electronic thermometer - was in the 104-5 range. Those things aren't the most accurate, but I was as sick as I'd ever been. It's hard to be objective about your own illness, I was convinced that if I was 20+ years older and/or hadn't gotten vaccinated, I'd have been hospitalized at the very least and in the ground at worst.
 
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Trapper

ISO brown liquor and wild salmonoids
Please explain:

— “You may get the flu even if you get the vaccine, but it’ll be less severe.”

Q: How could this ever be measured? If you had identical twins living in the same environment and one got the vaccine and one did not and both got the flu, but the vaccinated one was less severe? How else could you measure this difference?

— The flu vaccine is only effective for two months.

Q: If the peak flu season is December-January why get the vaccine before late November?
 
Please explain:

— “You may get the flu even if you get the vaccine, but it’ll be less severe.”

Q: How could this ever be measured? If you had identical twins living in the same environment and one got the vaccine and one did not and both got the flu, but the vaccinated one was less severe? How else could you measure this difference?

— The flu vaccine is only effective for two months.

Q: If the peak flu season is December-January why get the vaccine before late November?
Trapper, I'll try to respond to your concerns here.
Q1: Immune response to a diverse flu virus population is complicated. Different strains of virus may be more or less susceptible to the antibodies in your body from the vaccine. In other words, some strains may be completely stopped by the vaccine, others partially, and some maybe not at all. Also, (see below), your body will contain a mix of antibodies, if you get flu shots regularly, or if you have had the flu and have developed antibodies to the live flu virus. These will confer varying degrees of immunity, which manifests as less severe flu.

Q2: Flu vaccines reach full effectiveness pretty quickly, within a few weeks. They then diminish over time, but antibodies will be abundant enough through out the flu season (6 months or so) and even still be in your blood, albeit at lower levels, the following year.

Dick
 
Please explain:

— “You may get the flu even if you get the vaccine, but it’ll be less severe.”

Q: How could this ever be measured? If you had identical twins living in the same environment and one got the vaccine and one did not and both got the flu, but the vaccinated one was less severe? How else could you measure this difference?

— The flu vaccine is only effective for two months.

Q: If the peak flu season is December-January why get the vaccine before late November?
One of the first questions that gets asked during a hospitalization is vaccine status. It would be pretty easy to figure out flu severity among those vaccinated and not. Numerous studies if you want to find them on google.
 

dflett68

Active Member
One of the first questions that gets asked during a hospitalization is vaccine status. It would be pretty easy to figure out flu severity among those vaccinated and not. Numerous studies if you want to find them on google.
seems like that could be a skewed set of data - only people with symptoms severe enough to warrant hospitalization?
 
Not only no but "Hell No!" I lived in Asia for 7 years, 4 of those in China, where every single strain of the flu in history originated (despite names like "Spanish Flu). I gathered up enough antibodies during that time to tide me over. Plus I am still, at 59 years, afraid of needles.

For those who don't know, flu is always originally an avian disease. Wild birds pass it along to ducks. In China, ducks and pigs muck about in the same filth beneath or next to a home, eating - well, you don't want to know what they eat. The pigs ingest it and inside the pig the virus gets transformed into a flu version that can be passed along to humans. The avian nature of flu is why vaccines are grown inside chicken eggs.
Hi Dan,

Fair enough opinions, here's mine. There's a multiple types of flu that affect a lot of animals including us and of course birds. The same 'bird' strains do infect pigs too in order to grow, the only way viruses can do this is with a live host. One can counterpoint that the pig strain also grows in birds...The pig/duck plus humans bit is due to Chinese agricultural methods, they love eating them as much as we love beef/chicken but have always raised pigs and ducks in really close proximity so there's more opportunity for things to jump across. Bovine tuberculosis can do the same thing to humans, just in many places globally the cows are now TB free.

The last big flu scare was due to a strain of swine flu that came out of Mexico or that's where it was first found and it came from a pig, not a bird. The avian flu strain H5N1 is the really dangerous one and seems to be mainly in chicken flocks in SE Asia. That's the one that the CDC and others are shitting themselves about, it has a really high mortality rate (ie most infected folks die) but it is not very infectious so only chicken flock wranglers appear to be at real risk, for now.

If it mutates enough or jumps into a pig (or a duck) it may rearrange sufficiently to become truly bad ass infectious and also remain very deadly. This is when everyone will be begging for a shot, even I suspect a lot of the antivaxx'ers :cool: If folks don't want it even then, it will be beneficial as I doubt there'll be enough to go around anyway.

I'd hazard they grow it in eggs vs pigs because it is much, much cheaper to do and less biohazard risk in production as eggs don't sneeze, or have an immune system; many inoculated pigs would likely get better quite quickly and then be immune to the flu as they just had a shot :D

Dave
 
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Old Man

Just an Old Man
I've been getting these shots for about 40 years now. So I seldom get deathly sick anymore. I had just been to the Doctor on the first Monday of this month. Came down sick on the Wednesday following. It didn't feel like the flu, but I had a few aches and pains. But no fever, chills, no runny nose and no cough. It lasted about 4 days and was weak as a kitten.

Maybe the build up over them 40 years had something to do with it. I don't know. I'm just guessing.
 

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