Irafly
Indi "Ira" Jones
Montana, right? Just saying.
Cost of fluorocarbon
- Thread starter Steve Vaughn
- Start date
Kyle Smith
DBA BozoKlown406
Right, it isn't the same as what some of you guys do.
Steve Vaughn
Member
For me the topic is not about the absolute cost of fluoro tippet, but questioning why it appears that fluoro marketed to fly fishers is so much more expensive than other fluoro products? Is there really a structural or strength difference or is it marketing? We could also get into why a fly rod should cost $900.
Stonefish
Triploid, Humpy & Seaplane Hater....Know Grizzler
alternative opinion based on chemistry: never use fluoro for any reason because it does NOT break down. Despite the marketing, this is an inherent disadvantage. The C-F bond is the strongest organic bond possible, and nature doesnt really have any realistic way of reversing that chemistry.
Are you really comfortable with all those little chunks of line outlasting you by hundreds of years? Does the thought of generations of fishermen polluting the waters we love so much with non biodegradable (and much more toxic processes during manufaturing) products that last for many centuries beyond us bother you at all? It doesnt just magically disappear you know.
That bothers me enough that possible fishing advantages are not a factor in the decision. I try to minimize purchases whose consequences extend far past my lifetime as much as I can.
Are you really comfortable with all those little chunks of line outlasting you by hundreds of years? Does the thought of generations of fishermen polluting the waters we love so much with non biodegradable (and much more toxic processes during manufaturing) products that last for many centuries beyond us bother you at all? It doesnt just magically disappear you know.
That bothers me enough that possible fishing advantages are not a factor in the decision. I try to minimize purchases whose consequences extend far past my lifetime as much as I can.
GOTY
6x Puget Sound Steelhead Guide of the Year
I use seaguar because it's cheap and works. I've had days where tying on 8lb landed me half a dozen steelhead where my buddy fishing Maxima swinging the run first got blanked. Ever since that day I swear by it. Could have been a million other reasons, but the one change I made was fluoro so I'm going with that until it doesn't work.
One huge thing to consider is limpness/stiffness of fluoro. I use red label for the majority of my tippet in fresh water, but use blue for tying my leaders since I love the stiffness of it, turns shit over really well. I use premier as well for tippet but only with lighter flies, as it is super limp/supple stuff. It is completely useless when using say a tube fly and you're dropping a hook back an inch or three via a loop - the line is so limp the hook hangs well below the fly. On the other hand, for dangling a chironomid or something I can't think of a better material. I also prefer to use premier for my small steelhead hairwings, sizes 6-8....but rarely have it with me. That shit is pricey. I've found red label to suit 90%+ of my tippet needs, and typically prefer it over salmon steelhead/premier so that's what I go with.
One huge thing to consider is limpness/stiffness of fluoro. I use red label for the majority of my tippet in fresh water, but use blue for tying my leaders since I love the stiffness of it, turns shit over really well. I use premier as well for tippet but only with lighter flies, as it is super limp/supple stuff. It is completely useless when using say a tube fly and you're dropping a hook back an inch or three via a loop - the line is so limp the hook hangs well below the fly. On the other hand, for dangling a chironomid or something I can't think of a better material. I also prefer to use premier for my small steelhead hairwings, sizes 6-8....but rarely have it with me. That shit is pricey. I've found red label to suit 90%+ of my tippet needs, and typically prefer it over salmon steelhead/premier so that's what I go with.
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Rob Allen
Active Member
Flurocarbon sucks, you should only use when the fish are so picky you need to use it and there is zero need for it larger than 6x and then for tippets only and only short tippets at that.
In all instances it's better to learn better presentation than to rely on tools to do the work for you.
By learning to present flies better you can use heavier and less damaging leader materials. For my spring creek fishing in the Rockies i used to use 6x flurocarbon now for the same situations i can use 5 and even 4x for a size 16 cripple during a PMD hatch.
6x is for size 20 and smaller only. Even pressured trout are far more presentation shy than leader shy.
In all instances it's better to learn better presentation than to rely on tools to do the work for you.
By learning to present flies better you can use heavier and less damaging leader materials. For my spring creek fishing in the Rockies i used to use 6x flurocarbon now for the same situations i can use 5 and even 4x for a size 16 cripple during a PMD hatch.
6x is for size 20 and smaller only. Even pressured trout are far more presentation shy than leader shy.
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Steve Birrer
Active Member
A good number of years ago I was fishing a well known lake for big rainbows. The weather was crap (like it always is there) and not many guys were still fishing. But I was toughing it out (I was younger and dumber then) as was one other guy. We ended up fishing a drop off about a cast apart from each other with neither have any luck. But we knew sooner or later some fish would cruise that edge so we kept plugging away. In the meantime we were having a nice conversation about places we have fished. After about an hour and several fly changes he got bit. Then he got bit again. Then he got bit again. I was still fishless. So he called me over and gave me one of the flies he was using. We had already compared notes on lines and we were using teh exact same line/weight.
So I tie on the new fly with renewed enthusiasm and got back to fishing. Well after he landed two more and I still hadn't gotten a bit he said to switch places with him as maybe he was in the exact sweet spot (now how many guys would do that today!!!). So we switch and you guessed it, he gets another fish in his first handful of casts. So he has landed about a half dozen and I am hitless. So he finally says "hey Steve what tippet are you using?" And I replied 3X. So was he. Then he said are you using Flouro? And I said no haven't ever tried it yet. So he brings me over about two arm lengths off his spool and says "try this, its the only thing left different between what we are doing" So I tie on some fluoro tippet. No I didn't get a fish the first cast. But it wasn't long before I was getting bit just as much as he was.
I have used Fluoro 100% of the time since that day (except for dry flies) and have never looked back. There is nothing wrong with trying to save some bucks but here's the bottom line. Fishing is expensive. Nobody I know gets to fish as much as they'd like. And in the overall cost of a day on the water the cost of your leader/tippet material is noise level. Use good stuff.
So I tie on the new fly with renewed enthusiasm and got back to fishing. Well after he landed two more and I still hadn't gotten a bit he said to switch places with him as maybe he was in the exact sweet spot (now how many guys would do that today!!!). So we switch and you guessed it, he gets another fish in his first handful of casts. So he has landed about a half dozen and I am hitless. So he finally says "hey Steve what tippet are you using?" And I replied 3X. So was he. Then he said are you using Flouro? And I said no haven't ever tried it yet. So he brings me over about two arm lengths off his spool and says "try this, its the only thing left different between what we are doing" So I tie on some fluoro tippet. No I didn't get a fish the first cast. But it wasn't long before I was getting bit just as much as he was.
I have used Fluoro 100% of the time since that day (except for dry flies) and have never looked back. There is nothing wrong with trying to save some bucks but here's the bottom line. Fishing is expensive. Nobody I know gets to fish as much as they'd like. And in the overall cost of a day on the water the cost of your leader/tippet material is noise level. Use good stuff.
Steve Vaughn
Member
This thread has provided a lot of anecdotal information and opinions but no reference to technical data. So still feeling uneducated on the topic I put the questions to Rio and Seagur via the contact links on their websites. Will provide the responses, should I receive any.
scifidelity
Active Member
THIS.
A couple of others have said it, but seagar 20lb is the only Flouro leader material I now use for steelhead and salmon. Actually it's really all I use period these days. Before that I used maxima but also OPST flouro which is total garbage and brittle like no tomorrow. Lost a summer fish on it last year, will never use it again and trying to tell others the same. They make a lot of other nice stuff, but their flouro is terrible.
scifidelity
Active Member
You really should not be fishing if you are extremely concerned about environmental impact. At best, we put fish at risk, stress them out. At work, we kill them accidentally with our hooks.
jwg
Active Member
Is it worth it?
I agree with those that have provided objective evidence that fluorocarbon can make the difference between bites and no bites.
I also agree that the weakest connection between you and the fish is not the place to scrimp on spending.
The yellowstoneangler reviews on tippet materials and knot strength recommend Seaguar Grandmax and Trouthunter for tippet.
https://www.yellowstoneangler.com/gear-review/tippet-shootout-seaguar-grandmax-trouthunter-orvis-mirage-riopowerflex-pline-dairiki-varivas-sa-climax-maxima-froghair-stoft-umpqua
These are both double structured fluorocarbon, meaning a stiffer stronger resin in the core and a softer resin on the outside. The latter is said to improve knot seating and strength.
(The video previously posted seems to have this inverted when it says a softer core.)
Seaguar Max is also said to be double structured, but less stiff.
So, using 3x and 4x as my tippet, and typical prices, here is what I get:
Seaguar Grandmax 4x, 7lb test, 0.007 in diameter: 14.95 for 25 meters, 60 cents/meter
Trout hunter 4x, 7lb test, 0.007 in diameter 24.95 for 50 meters, 50 cents/meter
3x 8.6 lb test, 0.008 in diameter same
A Seaguar bulk line that is double structured is Tatsu.
I have no way of knowing if Tatsu is more like Max or Grandmax tippet.
However it is described as supple so maybe more like Max.
Tatsu 6 lb test, 0.008 in diameter, 39.99 for 183 meters, 22 cents/meter
Tatsu 4 lb test is 0.007 inch, same price.
or really bulk from tacklewarehouse189.99 for 1000 yards, 914.4 meters, makes 21 cents/meter!
Tatsu may be a more economical way to buy fluorocarbon tippet
Researching a little more, I find an article on bass cast that says all the following Seaguar lines use double structure
https://thebasscast.com/seaguars-double-structure-fluorocarbon-marries-strength-sensitivity-and-suppleness/
“Seaguar’s exclusive Double-Structure Fluorocarbon process is available now in Tatsu and Finesse mainlines, in addition to Seaguar Fluoro Premier and Blue Label leaders, as well as Max and Grand Max and Grand Max FX tippet material.”
And seaguar.com says in its history:
https://www.seaguar.com/about-seaguar.html
Today's Double Structure Technology products include Seagar's Red Label, Grand Max, Grand Max FX and Fluoro Premier brand Leaders and Tippets. Seaguar's Double Structure Technology provides a core 100% Seaguar Fluorocarbon resin that is harder, and an outer 100% Seaguar Fluorocarbon resin that is softer for a better grip effect when knotted.
J
I agree with those that have provided objective evidence that fluorocarbon can make the difference between bites and no bites.
I also agree that the weakest connection between you and the fish is not the place to scrimp on spending.
The yellowstoneangler reviews on tippet materials and knot strength recommend Seaguar Grandmax and Trouthunter for tippet.
https://www.yellowstoneangler.com/gear-review/tippet-shootout-seaguar-grandmax-trouthunter-orvis-mirage-riopowerflex-pline-dairiki-varivas-sa-climax-maxima-froghair-stoft-umpqua
These are both double structured fluorocarbon, meaning a stiffer stronger resin in the core and a softer resin on the outside. The latter is said to improve knot seating and strength.
(The video previously posted seems to have this inverted when it says a softer core.)
Seaguar Max is also said to be double structured, but less stiff.
So, using 3x and 4x as my tippet, and typical prices, here is what I get:
Seaguar Grandmax 4x, 7lb test, 0.007 in diameter: 14.95 for 25 meters, 60 cents/meter
Trout hunter 4x, 7lb test, 0.007 in diameter 24.95 for 50 meters, 50 cents/meter
3x 8.6 lb test, 0.008 in diameter same
A Seaguar bulk line that is double structured is Tatsu.
I have no way of knowing if Tatsu is more like Max or Grandmax tippet.
However it is described as supple so maybe more like Max.
Tatsu 6 lb test, 0.008 in diameter, 39.99 for 183 meters, 22 cents/meter
Tatsu 4 lb test is 0.007 inch, same price.
or really bulk from tacklewarehouse189.99 for 1000 yards, 914.4 meters, makes 21 cents/meter!
Tatsu may be a more economical way to buy fluorocarbon tippet
Researching a little more, I find an article on bass cast that says all the following Seaguar lines use double structure
https://thebasscast.com/seaguars-double-structure-fluorocarbon-marries-strength-sensitivity-and-suppleness/
“Seaguar’s exclusive Double-Structure Fluorocarbon process is available now in Tatsu and Finesse mainlines, in addition to Seaguar Fluoro Premier and Blue Label leaders, as well as Max and Grand Max and Grand Max FX tippet material.”
And seaguar.com says in its history:
https://www.seaguar.com/about-seaguar.html
Today's Double Structure Technology products include Seagar's Red Label, Grand Max, Grand Max FX and Fluoro Premier brand Leaders and Tippets. Seaguar's Double Structure Technology provides a core 100% Seaguar Fluorocarbon resin that is harder, and an outer 100% Seaguar Fluorocarbon resin that is softer for a better grip effect when knotted.
J
