Kanektok Gear Suggestions

BigJohnJohn

Fly Fisher
WFF Supporter
Hello Everyone -

Long time lurker on WFF but I have always been grateful of the information that is available on this site, and I was hoping to glean some ideas and suggestions. I am going on a guided multi-day float trip on the Kanektok in mid to late July and was looking to get some feedback from anyone with experience. Our guide has suggested 5 weight and 8 weight rods with WF floating sink tip lines (10-15' medium fast sink tips) and has then offered to let us use their gear with floating lines for going after grayling rather than going out and getting additional spools to swap out on the water. I have no reason not to go with the guides suggestion on this (and that is likely what I will do) but I thought since all of you were available that I would toss the question out here as well. Specifically, I am interested in your line recommendations and if you feel like the right avenue is to get new full length floating sink tip lines or go with tips and/or versi/poly-leaders added to my existing WF/F lines. While obviously, I don't want to go out and spend a bunch of additional money on gear for the trip, I also don't want to not be willing to spend a few bucks to make the most out of a trip that I have already dropped a good investment into. I am interested in your collective thoughts and thanks in advance for the suggestions.

Also, on a different but related note. Thoughts on the need to get a head net or will I get by with DEET?

Also, open to any and all other wisdom you are willing to part with.

Thanks,

John
 

chief

Active Member
I have fished the Kanektok quite a few times, and have never used anything but a floating line for salmon or trout (except swinging for kings). But if the guide is recommending sink tips, I would listen to your guide. Maybe he has a different program than the guides I fished with. I agree with the rod 5wt/8wt rod selection, and would throw in a 6wt if you have one.

I prefer buffs and gloves to keep the bugs off, the no see ums drink deet for breakfast, but it works on the mosquitos. It can't hurt to throw in a head net they don't take any space. The buzz off shirts are nice, but my experience is that they are better for the tropics. In Alaska you are rarely stripped down all the way to that layer. You usually have a puff or wading jacket layer on top most of the day. If you already own buzz off stuff I would take it, but I wouldn't run out and spend a bunch of money on it. All this probably depends on your sensitivity to insect bites and the annoyance of gnats flying around your head....
 
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Brian Miller

Be vewy vewy qwiet, I'm hunting Cutthwoat Twout
WFF Supporter
There was a "Tick" thread awhile ago where I mentioned treating my clothes with Permethrin. Check it out...
Sawyer Permethrin is fairly expensive. The $16 - 24 ounce bottle is 40% cheaper per ounce than the 12 ounce bottle at REI but I blew through my 24 ounce bottle over a summer...
I haven't used it in the Yukon but it works well in newly melted out Cascades alpine meadows.

Using a Picaradin spray on exposed skin such as the Sawyer Premium Insect Repellent with a 20% concentration is said to be more effective than DEET on biting flies and doesn't damage plastics like fly lines.

When in those extremely buggy conditions I use a buff and carry a treated bugnet in my pocket as a last resort.
 
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Dustin Bise

reformed hot-spotter
that stuff is so highly lethal to aquatic insects i have concerns using it in and around the water. id go deet + deet proof fly line for the hands, bug net for the head. OR makes some nice headnet + hat combos
 

keekster4504

Active Member
I spent 2 summers at Toolik Field Station near Gates of the Arctic north of the Brooks Range (different region of AK, I know, but the bugs are impossibly bad there) and didn't go anywhere without nitrile gloves--not for my research, but just as a layer that they can't get their proboscises through. Also, this thing saved my life (mostly figuratively but maybe literally, too?). But if you have a good layer they can't bite through on your torso a head net is probably fine. Remember to wear a hat with a brim under it to hold it off your skin!
 

ribka

Active Member
that stuff is so highly lethal to aquatic insects i have concerns using it in and around the water. id go deet + deet proof fly line for the hands, bug net for the head. OR makes some nice headnet + hat combos

And how will it enter the water and kill the extensive aquatic bugs in the Alaska river systems?

You think DEET is any better for the environment?

You could “what if “ anything to the extreme. What if his his carbon footprint up to Alaska destroys Mother Earth ?

Sorry for the side track, the virtue signaling is getting sickening

Treated clothes are a great option for mosquitoes, flies and ticks while hiking , hunting and fishing and you had someone who spent time up
There

Good advice I’d say

Carry on
 

Dustin Bise

reformed hot-spotter
And how will it enter the water and kill the extensive aquatic bugs in the Alaska river systems?

You think DEET is any better for the environment?

You could “what if “ anything to the extreme. What if his his carbon footprint up to Alaska destroys Mother Earth ?

Sorry for the side track, the virtue signaling is getting sickening

Treated clothes are a great option for mosquitoes, flies and ticks while hiking , hunting and fishing and you had someone who spent time up
There

Good advice I’d say

Carry on

i was referring to the sprays, less so the treated clothing. i did not claim deet is better for the enviroment, so i don't know what that comment is all about. your on one. i dont give a rats ass what you do. for me i choose not to use it when fishing (which includes handling fish.....)

sorry if you dont like my opinion on the topic, im not really going to debate it with you. Here is some information.

"
What happens to permethrin in the environment?
If permethrin gets into the soil, it is broken down by microorganisms. Sunlight may also break down permethrin on the soil surface and on the surface of water. Permethrin does not mix well with water. When permethrin gets into surface water like lakes or streams, it sticks very strongly to sediment and can stay there for more than a year. Since permethrin sticks to sediment and does not mix well with water, it won't usually contaminate groundwater. Permethrin does not evaporate very easily when it is applied to surfaces. Permethrin was applied indoors near a window in an experiment where it was exposed to daylight. After 20 days, 60% of the permethrin that was applied was still on the surface.

If permethrin is applied to plants, it may stay on the leaves for between 1 and 3 weeks. Scientists applied permethrin to soil and then planted sugar beets, wheat, lettuce and cotton in the soil. Scientists found trace amounts of the permethrin residue in the edible parts of the plants at 30 and 120 days after planting. Trace amounts of permethrin have been found in foods including bananas, collard greens, squash and watermelon. However, less than 1% of the more than 1,700 food samples tested had detectable levels of permethrin.

Can permethrin affect birds, fish, or other wildlife?
Permethrin is highly toxic to fish and other animals that live in either salt water or fresh water. Permethrin is low in toxicity to birds, but some aerosol products made with permethrin may also contain other ingredients that can harm birds if they inhale it. Permethrin is highly toxic to bees and other beneficial insects."

What happens to DEET in the environment?
When DEET gets into the soil, it can be broken down by microbes, including bacteria and fungi. In experiments where fungi and bacteria broke down DEET, the chemicals remaining were less toxic than DEET itself. DEET usually sticks to soils, but can move in other soils to some degree. DEET does not dissolve or mix very well in water.

Because DEET is used by so many people, it has been found in waste water and in places where waste water moves into other bodies of water.

When DEET is sprayed or evaporates, it will be in the air as a mist or vapor, and then begin to break down in the atmosphere. These times for breakdown will change, depending on environmental conditions like temperature, humidity and wind.

Can DEET affect birds, fish, or other wildlife?
Tests were done to find out if DEET could affect fish or insects that live in the water. For freshwater fish and insects, DEET was toxic at extremely high levels. For instance, the level of DEET that killed half of the fish or insects was about 75,000 times greater than the highest concentration found in waste water or streams. DEET is not considered to be very toxic to birds.
 

Udibal

New Member
Agree with Chief above. Never used sink types/lines on the kanektok, but do whatever the guide says. Only bad things happen when you ignore the person you are paying. Bring backups of the gear you can’t do without, like waders and a rain jacket Alaska is the ultimate testing ground. Something always rips or breaks. Feel free to pm if you need more input.
 

Brian Miller

Be vewy vewy qwiet, I'm hunting Cutthwoat Twout
WFF Supporter
I'm do not think this is really side-tracking the discussion because a lack of effective bug protection might make a trip very unpleasant.
id go deet + deet proof fly line for the hands...
I mentioned Picaradin for bare skin. Many sources say DEET damages plastics including PVC, PU, nylon and polyester fabrics, breathable fabric coatings...

I haven't heard of "deet-proof fly lines"; a Google search of such only gives a hit on this thread.

How DEET Reacts with Plastic
...As demonstrated with a plastic cup, DEET can melt plastic because it is a member of the tolune chemical categories, and these chemicals are solvents meaning they melt things, basically.
What's important to remember here is that you should be careful when applying DEET in relation to what's around you. Say you're having a party and using plastic cups. Well... don't spray your bug spray around the food, for one, but also be careful that overspray doesn't get on any plastic. This might include a watch, compass, your favorite pair of sunglasses, or a nylon-based pair of pants or shirt.

Permethrin:
*A Cornell study showed "Permethrin is toxic to fish and should be kept out of all bodies of water (1). It was highly toxic to fish in laboratory tests, but showed low toxicity in field tests (23)."

When I am wearing clothing treated with a 0.5% concentration of Permethrin it's usually under waders and I am going to try to avoid getting dunked in my clothes. When I treat my trousers and socks, I spray until they are damp; probably using about 1 ounce. It leaves little "crystals" stuck to the clothing when it dries that I can't scrape off. And since it is effective for up to 6 washings with detergent and does not mix well with water I don't think it would all come off in one dunking.

I understand the concern for fish and aquatic insects but is that a pretty small concentration of Permethrin that would actually leech into the water?
 
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Chromer J

Active Member
I'd inquire about the intended presentations that would use sink tips. Is it for the 5, 8wt, or both? I've heard of guys swinging flesh flies with sink tips in AK for trout, but July seems slightly early for that to me. I think a great option for you to consider would be the single hand Skagit lines such as OPST's commando heads. One can throw a sink tip on the end from 5 -7.5' in a range of densities with a streamer, flesh fly, or whatever, but you have the added option of getting a floating tip and covering water with a morrish mouse pattern for those leopard rainbows like nobody's business. Hope you have a great time.
 
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Dustin Bise

reformed hot-spotter
I'm do not think this is really side-tracking the discussion because a lack of effective bug protection might make a trip very unpleasant. I mentioned Picaradin for bare skin. Many sources say DEET damages plastics including PVC, PU, nylon and polyester fabrics, breathable fabric coatings...

I haven't heard of "deet-proof fly lines"; a Google search of such only gives a hit on this thread.

How DEET Reacts with Plastic
...As demonstrated with a plastic cup, DEET can melt plastic because it is a member of the tolune chemical categories, and these chemicals are solvents meaning they melt things, basically.
What's important to remember here is that you should be careful when applying DEET in relation to what's around you. Say you're having a party and using plastic cups. Well... don't spray your bug spray around the food, for one, but also be careful that overspray doesn't get on any plastic. This might include a watch, compass, your favorite pair of sunglasses, or a nylon-based pair of pants or shirt.

Permethrin:
*A Cornell study showed "Permethrin is toxic to fish and should be kept out of all bodies of water (1). It was highly toxic to fish in laboratory tests, but showed low toxicity in field tests (23)."

When I am wearing clothing treated with a 0.5% concentration of Permethrin it's usually under waders and I am going to try to avoid getting dunked in my clothes. When I treat my trousers and socks, I spray until they are damp; probably using about 1 ounce. It leaves little "crystals" stuck to the clothing when it dries that I can't scrape off. And since it is effective for up to 6 washings with detergent and does not mix well with water I don't think it would all come off in one dunking.

I understand the concern for fish and aquatic insects but is that a pretty small concentration of Permethrin that would actually leech into the water?


let me REPEAT myself. I suggested using a fly line that is not affected by deet. They exist and IMO are the best lines out anyways. treated clothing is still a risk. again, this is what I do. im not telling anyone what to do, im sharing my opinions on the topic and concerns i have that are science based.

I am all about REDUCING my impact on fisheries, so its SUPER EASY for me to not use these products in our around water. I used to use it all the time working trail crew or on backpacking trips. but for fishing, why take the risk?? you spray some on your clothes, you touch some fish... maybe the fish dies, maybe it doesnt, we wont really know....

"
100% PVC Free
The original “PVC Free” Polymer coated fly lines, we at Airflo utilize solvent free Polyurethane as the base material in all our fly lines. When we originally researched our coating technology over 20 years ago, we wanted the best possible fly line material available. A coating that would be stronger than our competitors, could resist DEET and ultimately fight off the long term effects of UV. Polyurethane provided us with this and much, much more. "
 

Dustin Bise

reformed hot-spotter
The LC50 (the concentration that kills 50 percent of a population of test animals) is less than 1 part per million (ppm) for almost all fish species tested, and for some fish is less than 1 part per billion (ppb).

Permethrin bioconcentrates in fish, so that concentrations in fish are higher than the concentration in the water in which the fish live. Bioconcentration factors (the ratio between the concentration in the fish and the concentration in the water) up to 113 have been measured in brook trout,59 up to 613 in Atlantic salmon,59 and up to 631 in rainbow trout.60
Complex effects of permethrin on fish have been documented by the Canadian Forest Service in field studies. They found that diets of trout and salmon were altered when permethrin killed the insects these fish use as food. In some cases, diets were altered for a year following treatment. Reductions in fish growth rates, and migration to untreated areas followed; recovery required four months. The researchers concluded that permethrin is “not an acceptable treatment for large-scale use in forest areas containing fish-producing
water.”61

Other Aquatic Animals:
Mysid shrimp are killed by permethrin at concentrations so low that they cannot be detected in water (the LC 50 is 0.02 ppb). This means that “any detection of these insecticides in estuarine waters would likely be associated with adverse effects.”66
 

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