Air Travel

Vladimir Steblina

Retired Forester...now fishing instead of working
If we as the taxpayers are to bail out a corporation then we ought to obtain some ownership, and receive shares in that corporation.
Yep, I think that is part of condition.

Interesting article in the Wall Street Journal today.....Boeing asked for a bail-out. However, the CEO said forget it if the Federal government ends up with stock shares!!!

Sounds like a great tool to sort out which companies NEED a bail-out and those milking it!!!

BTW...way back when the state of Washington gave the illegal tax breaks to Boeing. I did a quick back of the envelope calculations....The state of Washington could have BOUGHT CONTROLLING INTEREST in Boeing for what they were paying in the illegal tax breaks!!!

Not this time, BUT last time....when the Federal government took over Wall Street Banks, GM, and Chrysler they should have fired the entire management teams for those companies.
 

bk paige

Wishin I was on the Sauk
Boeing is trying to save its customers and vendors, that's why it's for the Aviation industry.
Not just Boeing.
Without customers we can't sell aircraft, without our vendors we cant build aircraft. The average age of the commercial airplanes flying is over 20yrs old.
But I whole heartedly agree nothing should be used for executive's, and FYI, the top 2 at Boeing are not takeing a paycheck for the remainder of 2020.
 

GeorgeV

Active Member
WFF Supporter
Boeing is trying to save its customers and vendors, that's why it's for the Aviation industry.
Not just Boeing.
Without customers we can't sell aircraft, without our vendors we cant build aircraft. The average age of the commercial airplanes flying is over 20yrs old.
But I whole heartedly agree nothing should be used for executive's, and FYI, the top 2 at Boeing are not takeing a paycheck for the remainder of 2020.
Boeing's problem is not Covid-19, it is poor management, cutting corners to save a few nickles. It is bean counters with an MBA that were willing to sacrifice a great companies reputation to increase profits. They believed Milton Friedman "the business of business is to increase profits" . So they killed 340 people and ran the planes and company into the ground. They shouldn't be part of the corporate bailout, but the workers should get the increased unemployment benefits.
 

bk paige

Wishin I was on the Sauk
Boeing's problem is not Covid-19, it is poor management, cutting corners to save a few nickles. It is bean counters with an MBA that were willing to sacrifice a great companies reputation to increase profits. They believed Milton Friedman "the business of business is to increase profits" . So they killed 340 people and ran the planes and company into the ground. They shouldn't be part of the corporate bailout, but the workers should get the increased unemployment benefits.

So you don't care about the airlines or hundreds of vendors that depend on Boeing and the aviation industry. It is not about Boeing, but the whole industry.
 

GeorgeV

Active Member
WFF Supporter
So you don't care about the airlines or hundreds of vendors that depend on Boeing and the aviation industry. It is not about Boeing, but the whole industry.
United bought $10 billion , another airline bought $12.5 billion of their own stock instead of , leaving some of their profits in a rainy day fund. If the people at the bottom can afford to fly, the airlines can heal, but past experience says 'we the peoples' money doesn't get spent properly, it goes for stock and CEO pay, that is what has happened in the past. There is very little if any over site on this money, most of it is under Mnuchins control, that is wrong. I would like to see more money going to workers, it will filter up. If the airlines has customers, they won't need a bail out. Boeing has planes on the ground to deliver. I lived within sight of Boeing 58 1/2 years. I worked on the construction and remodel of many of their buildings, many of my in-laws and friends worked there. They were the source of the dollars that trickled into my pocket. I know what Boeing used to be, Boeing bought a failing company McDonald- Douglas then let the Mc-D management run Boeing. I remember Boeing blaming striking workers when they had a failed supply chain causing delivery delays, I walked with Boeing strikers in Everett in the 1990's and took coffee to the workers on the picket line. I've been on the phone and email most of the afternoon and evening contacting our Senators and Congress people. Trying to get them to argue for more benefits for the workers. I'm sick of bailing out the top and seeing workers get screwed. These are tax dollars, given to workers the money will filter to the top, everybody will receive help. Giving money to the top that won't reach the bottom will not help the economy. We are talking trillions of dollars, that some day will need to payed back by who? If workers don't have money to pay the rent and bills now, when they do get back to work they will need to pay back rent, back house and car payments that delays contributing to the economy to get it moving. The economy (GDP) is 70% retail sales, that is what needs to be saved not the other 30%. That shit eating grin on McConnell's face wasn't because he did something for workers, he just gave the 1% a hell of a raise. Like Senator Warren said "the game is rigged".
 

bk paige

Wishin I was on the Sauk
I agree on a lot of what you're saying, but past discresions by top level executives should not stop helping out the biggest industry in Washington. As you know every job at Boeing there is 10 jobs supporting it in the area, or more.
The 2 trillion dollar stimulus package wont help 80% of the Boeing workes as they make more than 75k, and the company is giving out 5 extra days paid that they dont have too during this shut down.
 

Rock Creek Fan

Active Member
In the late 1990's (maybe/probably earlier) corporate strategies changed. Companies, like Boeing and the airlines, changed who they were run by. CPA's, financial experts, 'the infamous bean counters', etc. started running the companies for profit and for the stock holder - the owners of the company. This change was pervasive and across many companies. A change in the culture of working for the company also changed. In the case of Boeing it went from 'family' to 'just a job'. I know because I worked at Boeing for 35 years and watched and felt the change personally. Pensions were decreased and finally eliminated and medical insurance coverage and associated costs paid by the employer were decreased and transferred to employee. This applies to many larger and some small businesses. It will never return to what 'was'. Employees went from being the most 'valuable asset' to just 'being a number'. Accept it as there are no other alternatives IMHO...

As a result of all these changes companies bought back stock to increase the price. The 'cash on hand/cash flow' burnt a hole in their corporate pocket. Airlines did buy backs of stock of approximately 95% of free cash flow rather than investing in their company; employees and equipment. Boeing did the same: bought back approximately $45B of stock. And now these companies are asking for a bailout? WTF! Shouldn't the investors (owners of the company) of the stock suck up the 50% to 75% loss in value rather than the everyday worker that made the company great with little to no reward for their work/effort?
 

GeorgeV

Active Member
WFF Supporter
The philosophy of Boeing's management changed completely over the years, I had friends that worked in the military, space and commercial areas, they all agreed, many big changes and not for the better. When that guy from Boeing went to Ford, one of them bought Ford stock, he did well on it. Another large Seattle company looked all over the country for another location for a new factory. They couldn't find another place that had the work force with the skills and work ethics needed. The factory was built here. I think Boeing is realizing now that South Carolina isn't as great as the bean counters thought. The Seattle area has had the best educated work force for many years. A national construction company project manager told me how much he enjoyed working here because of the well trained,skilled and efficient work force of the building trades.
 

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