NFR Does Armed Guys Keep Looters at Bay?

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Jim Travers

Active Member
In most of these movies I'm seein' they're always makin' it seem like success is measured by how much of a rule breakin', solo ridin', fast drivin', guitar slingin', backstage line sniffin', babe kissin' sumbitch you can be. I would say that viewin' these films has taught me that convincing others you HAVE these traits always leads to financial success!!!
 

Rob Allen

Active Member
Regardless of one’s Christian beliefs or lack thereof, I would hope people can agree that quoting punishment for thieves from Old Testament law is kind of like operating on Windows 3.1

I don't agree. Our failed prison system proves taking it easy on criminals is a bad idea. We need to bring back hard labor no tvs and no
You've done all those things, have you achieved financial success ?
i support myself and my wife and have bought a home and i eat what i want when i want.. so yeah..
i have what i deserve based on the work I have done.. if i had worked harder and not gotten into the fly fishing industry i'd be much better off.
 

Rob Allen

Active Member
Pretty simple huh.

For me the question would be what drugs haven’t you taken? I spent two years living on the streets of Seattle. I’ve been married more than once. I seriously doubt I could list all the jobs I have had in my life. I have had several successful jobs/careers and also a number of failures. I’m a high school dropout with a college degree. I raised three successful children that, fortunately for their mother, didn’t do it the same way I did and four grandchildren. At the moment I’m retired and financially stable. I’m a two time cancer survivor. I’m agnostic.

The are thousands of ways to live life.

sounds like you worked your ass off.. well done.

I smoked pot one time in highschool.
 

Irafly

Indi "Ira" Jones
WFF Supporter
Ira,

I am shocked that you as an "educator" would call someone else dumb because of a difference of opinion.
I would hope that you allow your students the right to express themselves in a free and independent manor or do you insist they recite your thoughts and embrace them as the be all and end all?

Dave
I was only agreeing with Rob, I think you read a bit too much into my comment. Rob called himself dumb, I agreed with him. I do the same with my students sometimes as well, they use negative self talk and as a technique to combat it I agree with them, which is not what they expect. It works to open dialogue all the time. But see as a professional educator with thousands of hours of experience and training, I know just when and when not to use the approach. But you are not an expert in the field, so I can understand your false association with an informal forum back and forth and how one might conduct themselves somewhere else.

Your hopes are substantiated by the way. I don’t just allow my students to express themselves in a free and independent manner, I openly teach them how to do it and then encourage them to do so. See I Have hopes as well, I have hopes of helping to create a generation of critical thinkers that are intelligent enough to understand simple concepts like white privilege without it hurting their precious little egos.
 

2kayaker

Active Member
Disagree. We are all born equal. Your personal decisions determine the trajectory of your life period.
As the 280 grain bullet punched into Martin Luther King's body I bet he thought to himself " I wasn't a decent enough man, I loved my wife, my kids, my fellow man, and had an honest relationship with my Creator,- still I couldn't flourish because someone stomped on me. Dear God-weren't we all Born Equal? Maybe that's as long as it lasts for the non-white male. "
 

JayB

Active Member
Yes Rob you are dumb, and you are also privileged, but that privilege does not and should not diminish your work ethic and effort. White privilege once again isn’t about you, it is not your fault, don’t be afraid of it.
I'm not responding to any particular claim in the above quote, Ira, but when I've read this and other threads on this topic you've been one of the most persistent and ardent proponents of the idea that it's essential that white people accept that white privilege exists and that it has played an essential - maybe even central - role in determining the outcome of their lives and has been a critical ingredient in any achievement or success they may have had. For the sake of this discussion, let's accept that all of that is so obviously true that it's not even worth discussing, and that it's critical for anyone who happened to be born white to say this out loud in public.

I'm aware of a vast body of literature that documents how growing up in stable household with a mother and father, early socialization, acquisition of literacy, a safe and orderly school environment, development of the personal capacity to execute complex cognitive tasks, executive function,etc, etc, etc, etc, etc lead to improved life outcomes. I'm also aware of historical examples of schools like Dunbar High School in Washington D.C., and contemporary examples like the Harlem Children's Zone or Success Academy that have demonstrated how how they can help poor minority kids develop these capacities and overcome structural disadvantages that would otherwise undermine their chances of leading happy and productive lives.

All of these practical efforts to improve the lives of black children, and all of the legal, legislative, and moral changes that evolved out of a moral framework based on equality under that law and the equal value and dignity of all people - regardless of their race - came about decades before the concept of white privilege became part of the public conversation. Why is it critical that white people embrace the concept of white privilege? How will well-intentioned white people publicly embracing this ideology help black people in tangible ways can't be achieved under the MLK-era ideal that only demands that we strive to treat everyone as we'd like to be treated no matter what race that they happened to be?

Also - if you have the time and motivation - could you watch the conversation between Prof's Loury and McWhorter and explain what they get wrong? What's missing from their analysis and what would you tell them they should change about their outlook? I'm not posting this dialogue simply because they're black, but because these two have engaged in the most sustained and analytically sound critique of the value of white privilege as a useful concept in helping to improve black people's lives that I've come across.

 
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NRC

Active Member
WFF Supporter
I'm not responding to any particular claim in the above quote, Ira, but when I've read this and other threads on this topic you've been one of the most persistent and ardent proponents of the idea that it's essential that white people accept that white privilege exists and that it has played an essential - maybe even central - role in determining the outcome of their lives and has been a critical ingredient in any achievement or success they may have had. For the sake of this discussion, let's accept that all of that is so obviously true that it's not even worth discussing, and that it's critical for anyone who happened to be born white to say this out loud in public.

I'm aware of a vast body of literature that documents how growing up in stable household with a mother and father, early socialization, acquisition of literacy, a safe and orderly school environment, development of the personal capacity to execute complex cognitive tasks, executive function,etc, etc, etc, etc, etc. I'm also aware of historical examples of schools like Dunbar High School in Washington D.C., and contemporary examples like the Harlem Children's Zone or Success Academy can help poor minority kids overcome structural disadvantages that would otherwise undermine their chances of leading happy and productive lives.

All of these practical efforts to improve the lives of black children, and all of the legal, legislative, and moral changes that evolved out of a moral framework based on equality under that law and the equal value and dignity of all people, regardless of their race decades before the concept of white privilege became part of the public conversation. Why is it critical that white people embrace the concept of white privilege? How will well-intentioned white people publicly embracing this ideology help black people in tangible ways can't be achieved under the MLK-era ideal that only demands that we strive to treat everyone as we'd like to be treated no matter what race that they happened to be?

Also - if you have the time and motivation - could you watch the conversation between Prof's Loury and McWhorter and explain what they get wrong? What's missing from their analysis and what would you tell them they should change about their outlook? I'm not posting this dialogue simply because they're black, but because these two have engaged in the most sustained and analytically sound critique of the value of white privilege as a useful concept in helping to improve black people's lives that I've come across.

To me, and my understanding is admittedly limited, white privilege is a question of the totality of initial conditions one is likely to face as white versus not in this country. While establishment of equal standing under the law (setting aside the debate over whether this has truly been fully achieved) is absolutely a positive change in terms of some subset of initial conditions faced by the statistically average nonwhite person, and specifically black person in the context of this conversation, it is not the only determining factor within the whole set of initial conditions.

Looking at a timeline of this country’s history, full-on slavery takes up nearly half, Jim Crow takes up another third (I am estimating here), and the post civil rights movement era is only a fifth, to say nothing of the incremental progress that has continued to occur during that last fifth of our history. I don’t believe history is mechanistic, I think it is turbulent. Events continue to resonate long after their initial occurrence, and things you think have gone away suddenly reappear, over and over again.

So acknowledging white privilege to me is recognizing that irrespective of progress made, the dice are loaded in my favor by the full weight of history that influences the initial conditions I was likely to face. Hard work matters, people do overcome adversity, and nothing is fully predetermined. But we’re playing with a different deck, still, even if we’ve begun to try to shuffle out all the jokers and aces that white people in this country have typically had at their disposal.
 

JayB

Active Member
To me, and my understanding is admittedly limited, white privilege is a question of the totality of initial conditions one is likely to face as white versus not in this country. While establishment of equal standing under the law (setting aside the debate over whether this has truly been fully achieved) is absolutely a positive change in terms of some subset of initial conditions faced by the statistically average nonwhite person, and specifically black person in the context of this conversation, it is not the only determining factor within the whole set of initial conditions.

Looking at a timeline of this country’s history, full-on slavery takes up nearly half, Jim Crow takes up another third (I am estimating here), and the post civil rights movement era is only a fifth, to say nothing of the incremental progress that has continued to occur during that last fifth of our history. I don’t believe history is mechanistic, I think it is turbulent. Events continue to resonate long after their initial occurrence, and things you think have gone away suddenly reappear, over and over again.

So acknowledging white privilege to me is recognizing that irrespective of progress made, the dice are loaded in my favor by the full weight of history that influences the initial conditions I was likely to face. Hard work matters, people do overcome adversity, and nothing is fully predetermined. But we’re playing with a different deck, still, even if we’ve begun to try to shuffle out all the jokers and aces that white people in this country have typically had at their disposal.
Thanks. That's a great explanation of why you think it's important to incorporate the concept of white privilege into your outlook, but the question I was trying to ask above - which may have been lost in all the verbiage above - is "How does that help black people in any tangible way?"

This is essentially the central critique that McWhorter elaborates in the video above, and that makes in the article below. He analogizes white privilege to the concept of original sin, and in other places compares the efficacy of hand-wringing of one's own privilege to praying to end a famine.

Loury's critique is a bit more multifaceted, but a central component is that he finds it not only unhelpful in any concrete way, but also demeaning and patronizing.

If you get the time to listen to or read what they have to say, I'd be interested in hearing what you make of their arguments.

 
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