Mixed Feeling About Killing Sea Lions

wetline dave

Active Member
So save the lions is based on humans enabled them to the extent a population explosion and hence let nature take care of it. Well lets apply that reasoning and emotions to rats, Humans enabled rats population to explode so thus we should not eradicate rats we enabled their population growth. Rats are warm a furry just like the lions and kind of cute in a way like the lions.

Save the lions and save the rats, nature will solve the problem and let the salmon and steelhead perish and rodent borne diseases flourish.

Get rid of the lions and the rats. It is up to mankind to balance the scales.

Dave
 

speedbird49

Active Member
So save the lions is based on humans enabled them to the extent a population explosion and hence let nature take care of it. Well lets apply that reasoning and emotions to rats, Humans enabled rats population to explode so thus we should not eradicate rats we enabled their population growth. Rats are warm a furry just like the lions and kind of cute in a way like the lions.

Save the lions and save the rats, nature will solve the problem and let the salmon and steelhead perish and rodent borne diseases flourish.

Get rid of the lions and the rats. It is up to mankind to balance the scales.

Dave
The "population explosion" you speak of exploded after the Sea Lion populations were decimated by European humans. Decimating one species to protect another is not sound ecology. The situation with rats is different because rats did not exist in certain places until we brought them ourselves. My skepticism of Sea Lion removal has nothing to do with an altruistic "don't punish the sea lions for our mistake" philosophy, rather it is based on the fact that Sea Lions effect a lot of species other than Salmon, and I am worried we are tunnel visioning on their effect on one specific population.
 

JayB

Active Member
Interesting factoid: The vast majority - if not all - of the California sea lions that have migrated north of California are males. Presumably this means that every sea lion present anywhere from the Columbia north could be killed and this would have a minimal impact on the number of sea-lion pups produced every year.


"Impact to Sea Lion populations

The California sea lion population along the West Coast (the ‘U.S. Stock’) is no longer considered at risk. According to experts at NOAA, the U.S. Stock of California sea lions has likely reached its “optimum sustainable population (OSP)”- also known as Carrying Capacity- with an estimated 250-300,000 individuals, a drastic increase from <75,000 individuals when the Marine Mammal Protection Act was adopted back in 1972. Female California sea lions do not migrate north as far as Oregon or Washington, so all California sea lions in these regions are generally subadult or adult males.

Similarly, the Eastern stock of Steller sea lion stock is considered healthy and has no special designation under ESA or MMPA. The population has been growing annually since the 1980’s and the most recent population estimate was 52,139 non-pups and 19,423 pups. NOAA has concluded that the stock is likely at its Optimum Sustainable Population. Like California sea lions, the Steller sea lions that migrate up[river into the Columbia Basin are all male.

As of August 2020, the States and Tribes estimate that there may be up to 290 California sea lions and 130 Steller sea lions using these areas in the Columbia Basin which is less than 0.1 percent and 0.18 percent of the total population, respectively. This level of take will have no impact on the population health of either species.

The Consequences of Inaction

Recent decades have seen unprecedented effort and collaboration among Northwest states, federal agencies, tribes, and private citizens to protect and recover salmon and steelhead. These efforts equate to hundreds of millions of dollars invested annually, and billions of dollars over the past several decades. The ongoing imperiled status of these culturally and economically important fish is not only costing the region millions in direct investments, but also in opportunity costs associated with lost fisheries, restricted power generation, and constraints on land and water use. If predation by sea lions at these environmental pinch points is not addressed as a tipping point, there is a high risk that these investments will fail, many efforts will be negated, and additional and irreplaceable native fish runs will be extirpated at increasing rates."
 

Sportsman

Active Member
The "population explosion" you speak of exploded after the Sea Lion populations were decimated by European humans. Decimating one species to protect another is not sound ecology. The situation with rats is different because rats did not exist in certain places until we brought them ourselves. My skepticism of Sea Lion removal has nothing to do with an altruistic "don't punish the sea lions for our mistake" philosophy, rather it is based on the fact that Sea Lions effect a lot of species other than Salmon, and I am worried we are tunnel visioning on their effect on one specific population.
How can someone that doesn't know shit, be so full of it?! This punk is a flat out liar. Don't believe me, read his past posts! Confronting a poacher at Meadowdale with a cuttie? BS! Nov 19 posted what a poor season he's had on NS beaches... without a guide! A week later recommend hitting cuttie beaches, " because I catch them regularly"! Lying little punk! PS. I don't drink bitch!
 

speedbird49

Active Member
How can someone that doesn't know shit, be so full of it?! This punk is a flat out liar. Don't believe me, read his past posts! Confronting a poacher at Meadowdale with a cuttie? BS! Nov 19 posted what a poor season he's had on NS beaches... without a guide! A week later recommend hitting cuttie beaches, " because I catch them regularly"! Lying little punk! PS. I don't drink bitch!
I have a picture of the Cutthroat if you want to see it. I never said I had a poor season on NS beaches. I have had an awesome season on NS beaches. What you don't seem to realize, (and I know this is going to blow your mind) is that I haven't exclusively been fishing on North Sound beaches. Most of my fishing has been trolling on a boat, or at a pier. I have had a great Cuttthroat year. But as shocking to you as this may be, I fish for other species too. And haven't had the same luck with them.

Maybe you should drink. You seem tense. Then again maybe you shouldn't because if someone can be this angry sober I am not sure it is in societies interest for them to be drunk.

Chill the fuck out.
 

Sportsman

Active Member
I have a picture of the Cutthroat if you want to see it. I never said I had a poor season on NS beaches. I have had an awesome season on NS beaches. What you don't seem to realize, (and I know this is going to blow your mind) is that I haven't exclusively been fishing on North Sound beaches. Most of my fishing has been trolling on a boat, or at a pier. I have had a great Cuttthroat year. But as shocking to you as this may be, I fish for other species too. And haven't had the same luck with them.

Maybe you should drink. You seem tense. Then again maybe you shouldn't because if someone can be this angry sober I am not sure it is in societies interest for them to be drunk.

Chill the fuck out.
Stop lying and I will. Quote...by you " I caught a beautiful cuttie in July and was proud of myself by identifying a creek"! You meant a run off creek with engine oil, antifreeze and dog poop in it? At a time of year cutts don't spawn? Quick, go delete all your dumb shit posts. Your a liar, plain and simple.
 

speedbird49

Active Member
Stop lying and I will. Quote...by you " I caught a beautiful cuttie in July and was proud of myself by identifying a creek"! You meant a run off creek with engine oil, antifreeze and dog poop in it? At a time of year cutts don't spawn? Quick, go delete all your dumb shit posts.
I caught the Cutthroat on the beach at the end of the creek. Speaking of said creek with engine oil, antifreeze, and dog poop, I have a picture of salmon making their way up it with the intention to spawn, so it really isn't out of the realm of possibility that Cutthroat spawn there. Especially as you know, there was a sign at the beach saying "Cutthroat spawn in this creek".

What do I possibly have to gain by lying about catching an average sized Cutthroat? That really is not an achievement. If I was going to lie about catching a fish, I promise I would make something far more impressive up. Then again, why do I need to make something up when I caught a 50LB Chinook on a 2wt rod using a Carp fly at Heather Lake ;)
 
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cdnred

Active Member
Then again, why do I need to make something up when I caught a 50LB Chinook on a 2wt rod using a Carp fly at Heather Lake
Hate to sound skeptical but that would be something I'd need to see to believe or at the least a pic taken of that event. Catching a 50lb Chinook on a 2wt rod at Heather Lake would be a headline event no doubt for the local papers..? Are you sure it wasn't a seal lion pup that you caught even though I'd doubt a seal lion would've been able to get that far up river..? :confused:
 

GSIEGEL

Active Member
Interesting thread.
My 0.002$- I don't see how it works to actively or passively "manage" >99% of animal populations from bacteria on up, but somehow not the <1%. I'd love to be enlightened.
 

nwbobber

Active Member
Interesting thread.
My 0.002$- I don't see how it works to actively or passively "manage" >99% of animal populations from bacteria on up, but somehow not the <1%. I'd love to be enlightened.
I think you're onto something. And considering modern medical technology has turned us into Darwinian backsliders, it's anyone's guess where humanity is headed.
My daughter (my only child) doesn't like fish, that's progress, no?
 

Philonius

WFF Supporter
This is semi-related/tangential, but maybe it will get this thread back on the rails. My wife and I took a walk through Kubota Garden in Seattle yesterday. We noticed clear sign of beaver by one of the ponds; an ornamental tree gnawed off at the base and branches stripped of their bark floating by the outlet.
Nearby, we ran into a maintenance worker wrapping trees and branches in poultry wire, so had to ask. Yes, he acknowledged that one or more beaver had taken up residence, perhaps having found its way up from Lake Wa, about a mile away. He said that beaver causing problems on private land can be killed, but that since the park is city property they are not allowed to harm them. They are working with city naturalists to try to come up with a way to remove them non-lethally. Or something.
Beaver can do a LOT of damage, and letting them inhabit the garden just seems like a disaster. No amount of chicken wire is going to solve the problem. As they say in the gangster movies “It would be a shame if some unfortunate accident should happen to them.”
 

herkileez

WFF Supporter
I believe it has become necessary to cull some pinnipeds in some areas. Is it "ethical"?... Not really, since they are an innocent party paying the price for our actions. Is it necessary? Absolutely... if we are to salvage salmon/steelhead populations. Ethics and necessity aren't always the same thing.
 

Sportsman

Active Member
I believe it has become necessary to cull some pinnipeds in some areas. Is it "ethical"?... Not really, since they are an innocent party paying the price for our actions. Is it necessary? Absolutely... if we are to salvage salmon/steelhead populations. Ethics and necessity aren't always the same thing.
Ethical... no. Necessary... absolutely. This is only the first and most obvious step in a complex situation. I'm no
bleeding heart... bow hunting for 3+ decades, harvesting salmon close to that. But no one I know shot anything just for the hell of it. Shark on deck? Double block it and then cut the strap, not his tail. Sea lion near the net, shoot around them, they usually took off. Sea lion in the net after we closed up? Kill it quick.
 

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