Legal Challenge to Co Management Sharing

[dustinchromers]

Alright. I coffee’d. I think this bout sums it up.

1. that it’s bullshit the NOF meetings are held in secret
2. That wdfw balls are tied because they have negligently failed to obtain an ESA agreement on their own and so bend over to whatever the tribes want.
3. Therefore, the citizens of WA get way less than 50%.
4. That the tribes aren’t counting their catch, are grossly over harvesting, and that the reallocation in future seasons isn’t happening.

The rest is justification for being able to sue. Given that this is a WA state vs Tribe issue, the group has to sway the judge that they have justification to intervene. This will likely be the hardest part.

Thank you. I arrived at a similar place. One key point where my interpretation differed was the fact you mention balls and the wdfw having them.. We all know wdfw has no balls and caves to whatever tribal or hot topic interest of the day. The fact these meetings aren't public is to me direct evidence there is shady shit going down. What do they have to hide other than the fact when you lift the wdfw skirt you will find this weird Ken doll, genderless, smooth area where one might find balls. Yet there's none. Just a shorn hump of useless plastic that panders to crazy special interests and tribes. Is there a surgery for this in your research? Who neutered the wdfw? Will a different governor or legislature give the department back their stick and budget? Who gets to kill the last salmon?

 

[JesseC]

Thank you. I arrived at a similar place. One key point where my interpretation differed was the fact you mention balls and the wdfw having them.. We all know wdfw has no balls and caves to whatever tribal or hot topic interest of the day. The fact these meetings aren't public is to me direct evidence there is shady shit going down. What do they have to hide other than the fact when you lift the wdfw skirt you will find this weird Ken doll, genderless, smooth area where one might find balls. Yet there's none. Just a shorn hump of useless plastic that panders to crazy special interests and tribes. Is there a surgery for this in your research? Who neutered the wdfw? Will a different governor or legislature give the department back their stick and budget? Who gets to kill the last salmon?

Slightly disturbing and entertaining as usual DC.

I have no idea what’s going on under that bloated skirt. Like most cases of morbid obesity, I doubt the sun has shown on those bits for some time. What you’re likely to find, due to years of negligence, is a festering bacterial menagerie on the verge of overtaking its host. The only cure is to kill, burn, and start fresh.

Defund the WDFW!

I think wdfw is primarily lazy and ultimately self serving. What’s the excuse for not having their own ESA agreement by now? Gill nets in the Columbia? - $ure. (Lol Columbia river stamp) Steelhead net pen farming leases? - $ure! Politically, I don’t think they want to touch the tribes and deal with any political fallout that’d ensue from the politically correct woke populace.

Fish NW ought to file FOIA requests on all the directors email accounts, sue them individually, and also litigate individual tribes for over harvest. Poke em in the eye vs lobbing rocks at the mobile home.

Nbd, should only take like 800k in legal fees. :/

 

[dustinchromers]

Slightly disturbing and entertaining as usual DC.

I have no idea what’s going on under that bloated skirt. Like most cases of morbid obesity, I doubt the sun has shown on those bits for some time. What you’re likely to find, due to years of negligence, is a festering bacterial menagerie on the verge of overtaking its host. The only cure is to kill, burn, and start fresh.

Defund the WDFW!

I think wdfw is primarily lazy and ultimately self serving. What’s the excuse for not having their own ESA agreement by now? Gill nets in the Columbia? - $ure. (Lol Columbia river stamp) Steelhead net pen farming leases? - $ure! Politically, I don’t think they want to touch the tribes and deal with any political fallout that’d ensue from the politically correct woke populace.

Fish NW ought to file FOIA requests on all the directors email accounts, sue them individually, and also litigate individual tribes for over harvest. Poke em in the eye vs lobbing rocks at the mobile home.

Nbd, should only take like 800k in legal fees. :/

There is a group in my neck that has been filling for information. They are focused on the Chehalis. They have sued over info not being provided ect. Not sure what the current state is but they basically didn't provide the info that they didn't want to provide and said, so sue me. I'm other words you can't make any entity or person do anything. My hopes for the agency and the resource are lower than low and not just on this front.

 

[Stonefish]

There is a group in my neck that has been filling for information. They are focused on the Chehalis. They have sued over info not being provided ect. Not sure what the current state is but they basically didn't provide the info that they didn't want to provide and said, so sue me. I'm other words you can't make any entity or person do anything. My hopes for the agency and the resource are lower than low and not just on this front.

Here is the latest from the group you mentioned.
Not much has happened since spring. Might be due to the virus but I’m not sure.
Hopefully things warm up with the heat on WDFW.
SF

Legal Issues | Twin Harbors Fish & Wildlife Advocacy

thfwa.org

 

[Jonathan Tachell]

Pat Pattillo's statement is quite telling on how skewed the process is in favor of the treaty tribes. Also, the disparity in the sharing of allowable chinook and coho salmon is alarming, illegal and responsible for killing many local businesses over the years.

 

[Salmo_g]

Also, the disparity in the sharing of allowable chinook and coho salmon is alarming, illegal

The allocation disparity is legal providing both the state and the treaty tribes agree to it. The key issue, I think, is that because the state-tribal negotiations are held in secret, WDFW throws certain non-treaty interests under the bus without them even knowing it until after the fact, after the negotiations are complete.

The Twin Harbors Fish and Wildlife Advocacy has sued WDFW over this in state court, and the state court ruled in WDFW's favor. This filing in federal court - I think - amounts to an appeal. The first step in the appeal process is to gain legal standing in the eyes of the federal court.

I've been very concerned about North of Falcon for the last five years. My main concern is that WDFW agrees to participate in secret negotiations, which by any plain English reading violates the WA state open public meetings act. Second, WDFW is no longer an advocate for non-treaty recreational anglers, who are the largest direct financial constituency the Department has. Although it is kind of like biting off your nose to spite your face, I can get behind an effort to defund WDFW because the agency deliberately and openly chooses to work in opposition to the largest interest group that supports the agency financially and for decades has supported it politically as well.

 

[dustinchromers]

The allocation disparity is legal providing both the state and the treaty tribes agree to it. The key issue, I think, is that because the state-tribal negotiations are held in secret, WDFW throws certain non-treaty interests under the bus without them even knowing it until after the fact, after the negotiations are complete.

The Twin Harbors Fish and Wildlife Advocacy has sued WDFW over this in state court, and the state court ruled in WDFW's favor. This filing in federal court - I think - amounts to an appeal. The first step in the appeal process is to gain legal standing in the eyes of the federal court.

I've been very concerned about North of Falcon for the last five years. My main concern is that WDFW agrees to participate in secret negotiations, which by any plain English reading violates the WA state open public meetings act. Second, WDFW is no longer an advocate for non-treaty recreational anglers, who are the largest direct financial constituency the Department has. Although it is kind of like biting off your nose to spite your face, I can get behind an effort to defund WDFW because the agency deliberately and openly chooses to work in opposition to the largest interest group that supports the agency financially and for decades has supported it politically as well.

Yeah, that

 

[Jonathan Tachell]

The allocation disparity is legal providing both the state and the treaty tribes agree to it. The key issue, I think, is that because the state-tribal negotiations are held in secret, WDFW throws certain non-treaty interests under the bus without them even knowing it until after the fact, after the negotiations are complete.

The Twin Harbors Fish and Wildlife Advocacy has sued WDFW over this in state court, and the state court ruled in WDFW's favor. This filing in federal court - I think - amounts to an appeal. The first step in the appeal process is to gain legal standing in the eyes of the federal court.

I've been very concerned about North of Falcon for the last five years. My main concern is that WDFW agrees to participate in secret negotiations, which by any plain English reading violates the WA state open public meetings act. Second, WDFW is no longer an advocate for non-treaty recreational anglers, who are the largest direct financial constituency the Department has. Although it is kind of like biting off your nose to spite your face, I can get behind an effort to defund WDFW because the agency deliberately and openly chooses to work in opposition to the largest interest group that supports the agency financially and for decades has supported it politically as well.

It may be technically legal right now. However, Non treaty fisherman have a right to 50% of the allowable harvest of salmon. That is not happening and is one of the issues that needs to be rectified. Bottom line is the WDFW should not be allowed to forfeit that right with out the consent of Non treaty fisherman.

 

[quilbilly]

Actually the treaty tribes have a right to 50% of the harvestable fish, there's no specific allocation on the balance...
The courts have said the Tribes have a right to 50% of the harvestable fish. The courts never said the State has the right to the other 50%.

 

[Dr. Magill]

The whole thing is messed up
What is 50%?
50% of some number that someone yanks out of their ass?
Who’s counting?

 

[dustinchromers]

The whole thing is messed up
What is 50%?
50% of some number that someone yanks out of their ass?
Who’s counting?

I went fishing Monday and I would say fifty percent of the coho in the river, which should have been choked after the last rain, is about nothing cause that's what was there. Yet nets are active. I know there's a couple fish around but I'm not that old and I remember even in the worst years there was like ten times around.

 

[dustinchromers]

The whole thing is messed up
What is 50%?
50% of some number that someone yanks out of their ass?
Who’s counting?

Self monitored

 

[Smalma]

In this era of ESA listed stocks without a doubt the NOF process is broken; compound by the region's seriously flawed salmon management and ESA stock recovery efforts.

FN seems to be asking for a 50/50 sharing of the catch of Puget Sound stocks yet a significant portion of that NT shortfall is due to the desires of the recreational community itself so not sure what the standing of FN would be in a legal sense for this issue.

For Puget Sound Chinook the majority of the non-treaty share is caught be recreational fisheries in mixed stock fisheries where the limitations of allowable impacts for weak ESA stock are amplified. Compared to the tribal fisheries which are largely terminal net fisheries which are limited by specific allowable impacts stock. Clearly a shift to more terminal non-treaty fisheries (likely would have to include more net fisheries) would help even the catch imbalance though I suspect there would be little interest in that approach from the recreational community.

I really do not see any path forward out of this mess. Such a path would have to be based on open discussions driven by honest assessment of the "facts" and a willingness to look at the larger picture rather than being driven individual desires. A proactive approach focusing on potential problems and long term solutions would have to replace the current proactive brush fire approach. The likely hood of any of that happen is so remote only a fool would waste much time in trying to improve the situation.

Many of the details that would improve the catch sharing, a more open NOF process, better salmon management and more effective ESA listed salmon recovery are know however discussing them is as futile as trying to improving this current mess.

Curt

 

[SilverFly]

Can someone boil this down for me. I think I see what it means but I'd like to hear some elaboration on the angles. It's been a long day and my mental stamina is low. Yes, I'm asking for an intellectual handout.

No shit. I got maybe a quarter of the way down the page before the words started melting together.

At least now I'm actually looking forward to work tonight. Simple, sensible stuff in the clean room, doing a full metrology setup on a deep UV scanner. I can deal with nanometers, asymmetric magnification, focal plane deviation and the like. But eff that legalese crap! Might as well be written in Cuneiform on clay tablets.

 

[SinglehandJay]

My ancestors used to sacrifice people to the sun god for rain and sun to grow food, can I sacrifice the Indians because it's part of my heritage? Those people need to get over it and quit singing the same sad ass shitty song. They only take because they can and are "entitled" to the fish for something you nor I had anything to do with. Their culture and the way they did shit is over. Drugs and alcohol and broken shit in the yard is the main concern these days, the state is just feeding their bullshit addictions.