One of the things that bothers me with this thread is we are discussing changes over time, values also changing, and what was PC is no longer PC... If we do not have the people in naming flies, e.g. Sex Dungeon, then this thread is/close to fruitless because times have changed, values have change, and what is considered PC has changed.
I wonder when this conversation moves to ski runs and rock climbing routes.
Nasty Gash
Glory Hole
Dick Dribble
The Big Woody
Organ grinder
Booby Love
May a dick grow out of your forehead
Inspect her Gadget
Way **** Sperm Burpers from Fresno
My balls feel like a pair of marachas
Swimmy, there's a difference between titillating and clever insinuation and the obscene. Gross isn't artful. If just offence is the goal, mission accomplished. "Pole Dancer" has the fishing pole double meaning and kinda clever. I don't see that whimsy here. Fresno does suck though. Have family in Clovis and have spent time in the city while on kayaking trips and it straight up is a gross city. I can never leave fast enough. It's still second to Chicago though.
I never did put too much stock in a fly name. If the commercial fly companies want to use potentially offensive and/or derogatory names for their flies, let them suffer the consequences of a free market. For the rest of us, we can choose for ourselves what we like and don't like and act accordingly. I honestly never heard any of the names mentioned (though I have heard and bought some that have been mentioned here, the ones that you use on a full sinking lines in lakes and they float up above the weed beds) and have never made anyone feel uncomfortable about the names of flies to the best of my knowledge. Therefore, perhaps a difference of opinion by the author, I don't feel bad or guilty for any thing I have or have not done as it relates to fly names.
Maybe Woodrow Call had a point. Perhaps we are putting too much emphasis on a name?
Clara Allen:
Did you give that boy your name before you left Montana?
Woodrow Call:
I gave him my horse.
Clara Allen:
You gave him your horse, but not your name?
Woodrow Call:
I put a lot more value on the animal than I do my name.
That's not quite an accurate description of my opinion. I strongly dislike the use of terms that are derogatory (Dirty Hoh) or objectifying (T & A Bunker.) They reflect poorly on people who use those names, and make many women uncomfortable.
The original article suggested that sexualized fly names support a culture of male sexual violence. That's pretty hyperbolic, but if I had to guess, I'd say the author has women in his life who have been traumatized by sexual violence, and who may react more strongly and negatively to terms like Sex Dungeon. While I personally do not, they are not, unfortunately, an insignificant percentage of women.
Nor are the VERY few women who post here representative of women in general. I could put together a list of 1000 local women who are interested in fly fishing (based on the # from a local women's FF Facebook group) but there are maybe a half dozen who post on WFF. My personal interactions tell me that there are many women who would love to fly fish, but no way in hell are they going to deal with the good ol boys network to get there. Walking into a flyshop to see 8 guys and a bin full of Galloup-named flies is off-putting, period. For most of them, the feeling of not being welcomed or respected makes it simply not worth pursuing. If you have a couple of outdoor hobbies that interest you, but the path to one is strewn with dogshit, you're probably going to pick the other one.
They are certainly not wading into this discussion, when they have their own forums.
This thread and posts like this have helped me to see things from a perspective other than my own.
Don't get me wrong- I love humor especially edgy humor weird humor cutting humor even non-PC humor that can be done in a way that means no and causes no harm.
But those kind of fly names are not funny - they are sophomoric juvenile stupid at best. While I've never been offended by them (because I tuned them out), they did nothing for me and I wouldn't want to be associated with them . Kind of like if there was a Poopsnake Fly or Bloody Diarrhea Fly or some other scattological name - just 5th grade stuff, not cool or funny (or are they? Discuss. )
Point is - I always just tuned them out - maybe my subconscious did an eye roll "that's stupid " - but not much more. That said I can now see how it can be much more to a female fisher and unfortunately turn people away from this "community". Certainly not my preference for this community and doesn't do anything for progress in society.
I'm not offended - I just don't want to offend. or repel people from a community that I'm part of, or accept disrespect (or worse) as normalized.
yes I have daughters etc - but even if I didn't I'd still want to be part of a society that is open and fair and respectful to all. And uphold humor to a standard that is actually humorous (post 5th grade)
I was going google some these names because I don't know what they mean...then I remembered I was on the prime's computer....probably would have gotten a visit from HR!
If we didn't fish with lures we could use the fly's real name like....mayfly, caddis...wouldn't that be novel?
What fun would that be? I like my PMDs, BWOs, green drakes and let's not forget the doodle bug, which represents nothing. Speaking of the Doodle...I've heard a couple stories about the origin of that name, one being that a lady wearing lipstick was smoking a cigarette, threw it in the water and a trout took it. Does anybody know where the name came from? It is a truly ridiculous fly. And a ridiculous story.
Just like all the goofy names for drinks, the marketing towards 20 something males is always laden with serial innuendo/terms for pretty much any product, as much as the company thinks they can get away with without tarnishing their brand to the point where they lose customers.
This is actually a science, companies don't take marketing campaigns forwards without testing, researching, and testing again.
Sex sells...big data has probably shown that it sells even better than they thought.
It probably shows 20 something males surf twice as much porn on the web as they do fishing forums...
Shocking I know.
Fly designers and namers likely know this, as does everyone else, it's not like it's a secret.
I disagree. Top tier assholes and other assholes should be given a megaphone. This way they can broadcast who and what they are and we all can then know who the assholes are. Assholes in the open aren't dangerous. Assholes laying in wait silent or silenced are the ones that are an actual danger to society. All censorship does is push radical bad ideas underground. I personally want to know if my neighbor is an asshole. Then I know what I'm dealing with.
That's was my exact thought when the orange decided to run for office. I actually thought putting his hate, misogyny, and disgusting demeanor in general, out in the open, would dissuade most Americans. I was absolutely wrong.
Times are changing, we are being challenged to change and that is a good thing. An old friend of mine used to say "If you're green you're growin', if you're ripe you rot". Taking into account how our actions effect the people around us is a good thing, and could make the world a better place.
You should gather up some of your closest woke friends and head down to the slide. In protest, you should demand Kelly rename his flies. Don't be afraid to knock out some windows in the process. This is really the only way to atone for your complicity.
Lived south of the Mason Dixon line in the 60's...as a young kid my 'world' was pretty much limited to how far I could ride my bike and school.
There were a lot of bigots in our area, most of them white working class, most of them church going, many of them unrepentant racists now that I look back on it.
My dad retired to rural coastal NC. He struggled and failed to find friends or someone to fish with. The locals at VFW or just people he met seemed to him to all be rather blatant bigots. Honestly, it really effected his retirement a lot. It was sad.
This is why I'd prefer to relabel "cancel culture" as "consequence culture." You can say any damn thing you want, but you may suffer the consequences of saying it. The First Amendment doesn't protect you from that.
It however doesn't give you the right to harass them.. cancel culture is pure evil.. it is intoletant, makes claims that are untrue and creates a false morality then pushes that on everyone else..
Before folks start crucifying The Caddis Fly Shop for selling Kelly's flies, just know that Jay doesn't own the shop. Affiliated sure, but he doesn't own it. The Caddis Fly is owned and run by good folks. If this topic leads to change in the industry I'd suspect The Caddis Fly will be in full support of it. Their willingness to post something like this on their blog and get the discussion going is a testament to that.
Said another way, if you'd like to call out shops for selling Kelly's flies that's fine, but do so for every shop that carries them. The blog post was discussing the industry and participants (that means you and me) as the culprits here, not one single fly shop. Resist the urge to scapegoat one singular entity, that doesn't help anything.
Sorry...I’m much concerned about education of our inner (and outer) city kids, homeless veterans, increased mental health issues/suicidal ideations, healthcare for the needful (I could, trust me, go on) than I am about some stupid fly name. Just sayin’. There is more; but, I still have one last strip of Gorilla Tape. Dang, that roll went fast. Peace, Ed
Sorry...I'm much concerned about education of our inner (and outer) city kids, homeless veterans, increased mental health issues/suicidal ideations, healthcare for the needful (I could, trust me, go on) than I am about some stupid fly name. Just sayin'. There is more; but, I still have one last strip of Gorilla Tape. Dang, that roll went fast. Peace, Ed
As I've said before, we have room to worry about and make changes in more than one area at a time. But your continued participation here is counter to your statement. If you truly were more concerned about other issues, than fly names, then you wouldn't be here continuing to post. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad you are here posting, because it will continue to expose you to some truths that you may not have understood before, but I'm not buying your, "There are bigger problems." argument.
To many anyway, the "Bigger Problem" argument is not a valid response to a crisis.
I think Rob Allen should get a pair of these jeans:
If you don't find that funny, then you are either too woke, or not woke enough. If so then either way YOU are part of the problem. Either woke up or tone it down ... please.
Beastie Boys...What’s another name for pirate treasure? Ed
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