China's 5 year plan

Swimmy

Practice your craft.
WFF Supporter

Swithin Lui, of the Climate Action Tracker and NewClimate Institute, said: "[This is] underwhelming and shows little sign of a concerted switch away from a future coal lock-in. There is little sign of the change needed [to meet net zero]."

China has got to be laughing at us. Our leaders want to hamstring our businesses while they grow stronger.
 

Driftless Dan

Driftless Dan
WFF Supporter
Yeah, I don't see it that way at all.

First, I don't view Ecowatch or Climate Action Tracker to be 1) evenhanded in reporting, or 2) knowledgeable in any way, shape, or form, with international politics except as seen through its own biased lenses.

Second, what the USA does to preserve the environment, or at least slow its destruction, has little to do with China. Actions in China are independent from those in the USA. To compare the two is apples and oranges.

What proof, or even evidence do you have, that "our leaders want to hamstring our business?" Besides none at all, which is all you have. Remember, it's the intent you clearly mentioned - our leaders WANT to hamstring us, according to you. You cannot infer causation from correlation. Our leaders WANT to protect us from pollution - growth at any cost is no longer acceptable.

Third, these orgs have NO IDEA what the Chinese gov't actually wants to accomplish, because they are viewing the situation from Western eyes and attitudes. That's not only incorrect, it's dangerous. But oh-so-typical of folks in the West.
 

dustinchromers

Active Member
Yeah, I don't see it that way at all.

First, I don't view Ecowatch or Climate Action Tracker to be 1) evenhanded in reporting, or 2) knowledgeable in any way, shape, or form, with international p
olitics except as seen through its own biased lenses.

Second, what the USA does to preserve the environment, or at least slow its destruction, has little to do with China. Actions in China are independent from those in the USA. To compare the two is apples and oranges.

What proof, or even evidence do you have, that "our leaders want to hamstring our business?" Besides none at all, which is all you have. Remember, it's the intent you clearly mentioned - our leaders WANT to hamstring us, according to you. You cannot infer causation from correlation. Our leaders WANT to protect us from pollution - growth at any cost is no longer acceptable.

Third, these orgs have NO IDEA what the Chinese gov't actually wants to accomplish, because they are viewing the situation from Western eyes and attitudes. That's not only incorrect, it's dangerous. But oh-so-typical of folks in the West.

I agree with everyone doing their own thing. But China is part of the Paris accord and so are we, again. What benefit is it to our interests to play favourites and let China do their own thing. Are you saying we should exit the Paris accord? Personally I think everybody should try to clean up pollution Paris accord or not, climate change believer or not, whatever China does or doesn't do but that's just me.
 

doublespey

Steelhead-a-holic
Try breathing Beijing's air for a week and then tell me how you feel about it. ;) We need to address atmospheric pollution globally. Believe in climate change or not, if we want to continue existing on this planet it's time for every country to get off their a$$ets and start making changes.
 

dustinchromers

Active Member
Try breathing Beijing's air for a week and then tell me how you feel about it. ;) We need to address atmospheric pollution globally. Believe in climate change or not, if we want to continue existing on this planet it's time for every country to get off their a$$ets and start making changes.

While I agree I just don't see China doing much about it. How do you motivate them to do something about it? There's a Paris accord and in my limited understanding I don't see many teeth in the deal to get China to do much of anything. Sooner or later the peer pressure of a global coalition will have to address it in harsh fashion other than lip service rather than give a pass as has been done in the past. And I'm in no way suggesting a war or threat type thing. China is given preferred nation trading status dating from a long while back even though their record on environmental issues as well as human rights is horrible. In fact preferred trading status is an action that says all this is tolerable. Follow the money and you will see it makes folks look the other way. I avoid Chinese goods like the current plague. Not only for the reasons stated above but also for the fact that the current pandemic is the longest lasting product to ever come out of there.
 

Swimmy

Practice your craft.
WFF Supporter
First, I don't view Ecowatch or Climate Action Tracker to be 1) evenhanded in reporting, or 2) knowledgeable in any way, shape, or form, with international politics except as seen through its own biased lenses.

A quick google and you can read numerous articles. I just picked one. Do you really trust China?

Second, what the USA does to preserve the environment, or at least slow its destruction, has little to do with China. Actions in China are independent from those in the USA. To compare the two is apples and oranges.

The more regulation we put on our business will only help China to grow stronger. They have proven they are not seriously interested in curbing their emissions.

What proof, or even evidence do you have, that "our leaders want to hamstring our business?" Besides none at all, which is all you have. Remember, it's the intent you clearly mentioned - our leaders WANT to hamstring us, according to you. You cannot infer causation from correlation. Our leaders WANT to protect us from pollution - growth at any cost is no longer acceptable.

I'm sure your intentions are pure. However, I'm skeptical of anyone who says we have 9 years before we destroy the planet and therefore need to eliminate fossil fuel. At best they are morons, at worst they want to "reform" our society.

Believe in climate change or not, if we want to continue existing on this planet it's time for every country to get off their a$$ets and start making changes.

Let me know when these "other" countries start making changes. Maybe we start with China and India?

While I agree I just don't see China doing much about it. How do you motivate them to do something about it? There's a Paris accord and in my limited understanding I don't see many teeth in the deal to get China to do much of anything. Sooner or later the peer pressure of a global coalition will have to address it in harsh fashion other than lip service rather than give a pass as has been done in the past. And I'm in no way suggesting a war or threat type thing. China is given preferred nation trading status dating from a long while back even though their record on environmental issues as well as human rights is horrible. In fact preferred trading status is an action that says all this is tolerable. Follow the money and you will see it makes folks look the other way. I avoid Chinese goods like the current plague. Not only for the reasons stated above but also for the fact that the current pandemic is the longest lasting product to ever come out of there.

You do a better job of making my point. America makes all of the sacrifice while China is business as usual. The Paris Accord is a joke.
 

Yadwick

Active Member
A quick google and you can read numerous articles. I just picked one. Do you really trust China?



The more regulation we put on our business will only help China to grow stronger. They have proven they are not seriously interested in curbing their emissions.



I'm sure your intentions are pure. However, I'm skeptical of anyone who says we have 9 years before we destroy the planet and therefore need to eliminate fossil fuel. At best they are morons, at worst they want to "reform" our society.



Let me know when these "other" countries start making changes. Maybe we start with China and India?



You do a better job of making my point. America makes all of the sacrifice while China is business as usual. The Paris Accord is a joke.
So what it sounds like is you don't think we should be doing anything to help slow climate change because China isn't. Ok got it, good plan. I'm sure your cool and everything, but you come across as a whiny child in this post. Waannnhhhhh china doesn't have to eat their vegetables at dinner, why do I wahhhhhh. Come on. I mean china is performing genocides right now, for christ sake, why would we look to them as an example of what we should be doing.
 

Steelhead ©

BECU Member
WFF Supporter



China has got to be laughing at us. Our leaders want to hamstring our businesses while they grow stronger.
Yeah, deregulation is a great idea. Just ask the Texas power grid.
 

Swimmy

Practice your craft.
WFF Supporter
So what it sounds like is you don't think we should be doing anything to help slow climate change because China isn't. Ok got it, good plan. I'm sure your cool and everything, but you come across as a whiny child in this post. Waannnhhhhh china doesn't have to eat their vegetables at dinner, why do I wahhhhhh. Come on. I mean china is performing genocides right now, for christ sake, why would we look to them as an example of what we should be doing.

I'm all for curbing pollution and lowering our impact. I think any reasonable person would agree. I'm not for heavy handed, top-down, gov't regulation forcing our business to do so which makes us less competitive. We are already at a huge disadvantage.

If we can balance the two, cool. But I haven't really seen common sense ideas that give me any confidence. Things like cap and trade will only make us more dependent on China. Paris Accord gives China a pass.

We need to de-couple from China. IMO, that should be the priority. I'm sure some here will disagree.

Yeah, deregulation is a great idea. Just ask the Texas power grid.

Do California next. They have the tightest environmental regulations of any state in the country and every year experience rolling blackouts. It took a hundred year storm to expose a weakness in the Texas grid and I can assure you they will figure it out.

I'd bet on Texas eight days a week though to make common sense decisions over a state like California.
 
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long_rod_silvers

WFF Supporter
First, I don't view Ecowatch or Climate Action Tracker to be 1) evenhanded in reporting, or 2) knowledgeable in any way, shape, or form, with international politics except as seen through its own biased lenses.

Second, what the USA does to preserve the environment, or at least slow its destruction, has little to do with China. Actions in China are independent from those in the USA. To compare the two is apples and oranges.

What proof, or even evidence do you have, that "our leaders want to hamstring our business?" Besides none at all, which is all you have. Remember, it's the intent you clearly mentioned - our leaders WANT to hamstring us, according to you. You cannot infer causation from correlation. Our leaders WANT to protect us from pollution - growth at any cost is no longer acceptable.

Third, these orgs have NO IDEA what the Chinese gov't actually wants to accomplish, because they are viewing the situation from Western eyes and attitudes. That's not only incorrect, it's dangerous. But oh-so-typical of folks in the West.
I find it wildly ironic that you've sandwiched a request for @Swimmy to provide proof with three points of your own that you provide no proof to backup...

Edit: I can provide no proof that I find your statement ironic.
 

jasmillo

WFF Supporter
While I agree I just don't see China doing much about it. How do you motivate them to do something about it? There's a Paris accord and in my limited understanding I don't see many teeth in the deal to get China to do much of anything. Sooner or later the peer pressure of a global coalition will have to address it in harsh fashion other than lip service rather than give a pass as has been done in the past. And I'm in no way suggesting a war or threat type thing. China is given preferred nation trading status dating from a long while back even though their record on environmental issues as well as human rights is horrible. In fact preferred trading status is an action that says all this is tolerable. Follow the money and you will see it makes folks look the other way. I avoid Chinese goods like the current plague. Not only for the reasons stated above but also for the fact that the current pandemic is the longest lasting product to ever come out of there.

Follow the money both directions - where it’s going and where it’s coming from. I am usually an optimistic guy but not on climate change. In the end it boils down to basic human behavior....we always want more. It’s why we have been as successful as we have been as a species. These days, most Americans cry poverty when they cannot have eight 60 inch flat screens in the house. Cheap labor, cheap energy and lax oversight is the only way Americans get to live the lives we have become accustomed too. We consume based on want, not need in this day and age and that does not come cheap. It comes at the price of our environment or sacrifice to our accustomed lifestyle if say we all tomorrow decided to buy American only from factories who produce in an environmentally sound way...i.e. less stuff for most of us because it will cost a hell of a lot more.

Even if as Americans we chose the second route, good luck trying to convince the other 7.5 billion residents of this planet to follow suite. There will always be a market for cheaply produced things...somewhere.

Which leaves me quite pessimistic on the topic. We should all do what we can to minimize our impact in our own little circles is where I end up. Be an example to others around you and make the sacrifices needed to move in the right direction even if the impact you are making is miniscule....and yes, that means no updating lightweight fishing hoodies annually to incorporate the color of the year @Swimmy.

In the end though, the problem will likely not be addressed planet wide until we are forced. My guess is some type of mass extinction event. An issue our brains actually cannot come up with a solution for besides significant sacrifice.

Happy Wednesday all :)!
 

dustinchromers

Active Member
Nine more years till the tipping point and we move the goalposts again. Tick tock, tick tock...............

Fact is even if the climate changes the earth will be fine. We might be screwed but the earth and it's wildlife will adapt. Humans will too but not everyone will make it. Is this the depopulation event some are screaming for? I don't know. I do know I won't be here and I'll do my reasonable best to not litter and pollute but I'm not making major austerity measures. I'm just not. I'll avoid Chinese goods and buy stuff that lasts and farm alot of my food and not have ten kids but I'm not going to participate in any radical austerity feel good measures. I'm going to go along with life and of the earth explodes in nine years the humour and irony of this post will not be lost on me. Nobody gets out alive. Enjoy yourself while you're here. Only worry about that which you can control and look after your own yard.
 

Salmo_g

WFF Supporter
I'd bet on Texas eight days a week though to make common sense decisions over a state like California.
I don't bet, but if I did, I'd bet on Texas to make pro-business (a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush) decisions 8 days a week at the expense of the public interest and welfare (remember Enron?). That's consistent with their current condition of betting against the inevitability of uncommon weather conditions to enjoy near term lower energy prices. And betting against common sense decisions in California, well, that's not really a bet at all. Come on, it's California.
 

Canuck from Kansas

WFF Supporter
Do California next. They have the tightest environmental regulations of any state in the country and every year experience rolling blackouts. It took a hundred year storm to expose a weakness in the Texas grid and I can assure you they will figure it out.

I'd bet on Texas eight days a week though to make common sense decisions over a state like California.

The Texas grid was exposed 10 years ago with another 100 yr event.


"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it"

Cheers
 

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