Can Hatchery and Wild co exist?

BC33

Active Member
Once I looked closer at what happened with the round butte/pelton dam complex recertification, I realized the "science" is bought and paid for.....the water mixing tower to re-introduce anadromous fish above the complex is a super expensive joke, and the release of polluted surface water downriver has negatively affected a NATIVE trout fishery.....it's all to jump thru the hoops to get recert......cuz they must make an effort to re-introduce anadromous runs.....nevermind they'd now be re-introduced with hatchery stock.

PGE's in-house bio's paint a much rosier picture than the independent studies of Deschutes River Alliance.....
 

Phil Fravel

Friendly
Americans huge appetite for materialism is the sole problem. Oil, tire, deforestation are all a byproduct of materialism. Until Americans can stop consuming shit they don’t need the environment is doomed. Most people live in a house twice as big as they need. Have 20 pairs of shoes. I won’t get started on the amount of fly rods we all have. This stuff come with a price. It all has a carbon footprint way bigger than we want to acknowledge. Its easy for us all to blame oil and tires but the reality is our consumption is the reason the oil and tires are there. Until people truly understand the day to day impact they put on the environment nothing is really going to get fixed. Success will just come in the form of a temporary bandage we will label as a win so we can justify our next purchase.
Heck ya. I need a new fly rod and reel. And I’ll support my local fly shop.
 

Matt Paluch

WFF Supporter
Dave Schamp doesn't have any authority to complain about misleading the public. He has continually mischaracterized the science that addresses the relationship between hatchery fish and wild fish. When confronted directly about this, he said it's not his job to provide an accurate summary of the science - he's providing the pro-hatchery science.

A major point of their little video was the Clackamas River study that Hatchery & Wild Coexist funded through a private fisheries biology company. They concluded that removing hatchery summer steelhead had no effect on wild winter steelhead in the Clackamas River in Oregon. The timing of this study worked out perfectly for their pro-hatchery stance, primarily due to the severely depleted runs at the time due to sea lion predation that was occurring at Willamette Falls (where the Clackamas River meets the Willamette). In the time after that study was published, the sea lions have been lethally removed - to the point that there were no sea lions taking up residence at the falls for a significant amount of time this spring. This has resulted in substantially increased wild winter steelhead returns.

Hatcheries do have a place in Washington. We have the most hatcheries of any state, and more than British Columbia, too. There is some good work being done on this front to make a plan that provides hatchery fish for sport, commercial, and tribal use while protecting vulnerable wild fish stocks.

We need less organizations fighting with each other, and more level headed anglers getting involved. We need people working on evidence based programs that help the fish. We need far fewer people pretending that they know "the problem" with why we have low returns. I strongly encourage anyone who wants to do some good to get involved with groups like Trout Unlimited, the Wild Steelhead Coalition, Conservation Northwest, or FFi.
 

Matt Paluch

WFF Supporter
Once I looked closer at what happened with the round butte/pelton dam complex recertification, I realized the "science" is bought and paid for.....the water mixing tower to re-introduce anadromous fish above the complex is a super expensive joke, and the release of polluted surface water downriver has negatively affected a NATIVE trout fishery.....it's all to jump thru the hoops to get recert......cuz they must make an effort to re-introduce anadromous runs.....nevermind they'd now be re-introduced with hatchery stock.

PGE's in-house bio's paint a much rosier picture than the independent studies of Deschutes River Alliance.....
That project has proved to be troublesome. I don't think it's fair to say the science is bought and paid for. The peer review process is designed to prevent that. This was a new system that was tried, at great cost, and I hope they can get it figured out without having to scrap it.
 

BC33

Active Member
That project has proved to be troublesome. I don't think it's fair to say the science is bought and paid for. The peer review process is designed to prevent that. This was a new system that was tried, at great cost, and I hope they can get it figured out without having to scrap it.
My understanding is there were plenty of closed door dealings between PGE and other entities involved. They have been in violation of water quality standards below the dam complex, yet little is done about it. DRA has taken them to court over it, otherwise it would be swept away. It's also my understanding that PGE gives money to ODFW so they can afford another FTE.....seems like a conflict of interests to me.

PGE gets what they want because they are a monster with lots of lawyers.
 

Matt Paluch

WFF Supporter
My understanding is there were plenty of closed door dealings between PGE and other entities involved. They have been in violation of water quality standards below the dam complex, yet little is done about it. DRA has taken them to court over it, otherwise it would be swept away. It's also my understanding that PGE gives money to ODFW so they can afford another FTE.....seems like a conflict of interests to me.

PGE gets what they want because they are a monster with lots of lawyers.
Those sorts of accusations are common when a project isn't going well, but they rarely have much substance to them. I've heard a few grumblings saying the same things, but usually the long time between observed effects and action lies somewhere in government red tape that nobody can do much to speed up even if they really want to. It's frustrating, but there are reasons for the way things work.
 

BC33

Active Member
Those sorts of accusations are common when a project isn't going well, but they rarely have much substance to them. I've heard a few grumblings saying the same things, but usually the long time between observed effects and action lies somewhere in government red tape that nobody can do much to speed up even if they really want to. It's frustrating, but there are reasons for the way things work.
All I know is I'll gladly contribute money to Deschutes River Alliance. They are standing up to PGE, and looking out for the lower Deschutes. PGE cares about profits, period.
 

bk paige

Wishin I was on the Sauk
Dave Schamp doesn't have any authority to complain about misleading the public. He has continually mischaracterized the science that addresses the relationship between hatchery fish and wild fish. When confronted directly about this, he said it's not his job to provide an accurate summary of the science - he's providing the pro-hatchery science.


Kinda like certain bios that get paid by certain. orgs to manipulate the data for their owne intentions?
Hmm, yep exactly the same.
 

dustinchromers

Active Member
Kinda like certain bios that get paid by certain. orgs to manipulate the data for their owne intentions?
Hmm, yep exactly the same.

Data and science are lame. Who needs it. I would never listen to a scientist. They are all so pale and sciencey with giant glasses. If they can't see without cyborg lenses then how are they supposed to see the big picture? Like I said, who needs it
 

Salmo_g

WFF Supporter
I just had a chance to watch Benefishal. Funny thing - since I observe that hatchery fish supporters are the ones who usually get things wrong fact wise - but Benefishal is astoundingly more accurate in its representation than is Artifishal. Artifishal has so many facts wrong, and really goes all out with misrepresentations and false correlations as being caussal. I think Benefishal got it wrong at the end when stating that hatcheries and hatchery fish are helping preserve wild salmon and steelhead. I don't see where that's generally true at all. Mind you, I've written multiple times that I don't think hatchery fish are doing wild salmon and steelhead any favors, but to argue that the hatchery fish are responsible for the decline or declining numbers of wild citing correlations that don't meet the bar for being causal is either misinformed or possibly disingenuous. Surprised that I would say this, but props to the people who made Benefishal.
 

dustinchromers

Active Member
I just had a chance to watch Benefishal. Funny thing - since I observe that hatchery fish supporters are the ones who usually get things wrong fact wise - but Benefishal is astoundingly more accurate in its representation than is Artifishal. Artifishal has so many facts wrong, and really goes all out with misrepresentations and false correlations as being caussal. I think Benefishal got it wrong at the end when stating that hatcheries and hatchery fish are helping preserve wild salmon and steelhead. I don't see where that's generally true at all. Mind you, I've written multiple times that I don't think hatchery fish are doing wild salmon and steelhead any favors, but to argue that the hatchery fish are responsible for the decline or declining numbers of wild citing correlations that don't meet the bar for being causal is either misinformed or possibly disingenuous. Surprised that I would say this, but props to the people who made Benefishal.

It's 2021 man. We got alternative facts, fake news, fake facts, facts based on your feelings, your truth, knee jerk reactions, and gut feelings. We don't have to live in a world where we are a slave to facts and truth. It's 2021 and you can make your own facts if you want. Or better yet distill complex political constructs down to a simpleton's meme. Unchain yourself from these so called facts. You can literally form your own reality by finding, filtering, and sifting sciencey type stuff to fit your own world view. Remember when you came up with a hypothesis and tested? BORING! Now we just take data and mold it to fit our pre determined ideas. It's a brave new world and we all get to be armchair scientists. Those Addicted Fishing guys are way cooler than scientists and get chicks. I'm sure they are qualified to weigh in on this stuff. Plus they can likely help you find the right truck lift, giant tires, or some other awesome truck gadgets like heated running boards that drop down on titanium chain.
 

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