Idaho Culling 90% of Wolves

Rob Allen

Active Member
Sounds like you've given up on any sort of actual management then? Just FKNA let 'er rip until the last salmon/orca/wolf/tree/elk/wild place/wild animal is destroyed? No reason to try things like restoring the Elwha or setting aside wildlife refuges or protected areas. Just scrap the ESA. Race to the bottom! But hey, you'll live in what was elk habitat.

The society that are resigned to doesn't necessarily have to be.

If that one-pager was too much, maybe re-read the Lorax.


how could you get that from what I said?

All i am saying is that human nature is NOT ever going to change. We need managers who take that into account and think outside the box to work around human nature.. The same old same old isn't going to work!
 

adamcu280

Active Member
how could you get that from what I said?

All i am saying is that human nature is NOT ever going to change. We need managers who take that into account and think outside the box to work around human nature.. The same old same old isn't going to work!
What's the point of thinking outside the box if the box - human nature - is steamrolling on, destroying everything in it's path and there's no way to change it? If you haven't given up, please give me a specific example of what you're hoping to see because I'm clearly not picking up what you're putting down.

Luckily there are ways to steer human nature, or at least protect nature against human nature. Science-based education and management are prime examples. As long as we keep learning and applying what we've learned, there is no "same old same old" as you say.

Remember when we used to spray DDT on everything?
 

adamcu280

Active Member
For not picking up on what Rob was putting down.

Your 2nd paragraph pretty much is what rob said.
So his saying "There's no way to change human nature", and my saying "No, there are ways to change human nature" are the same?

He's also advocating for management w/o any historical context which is the pitfall of shifting baseline syndrome.

Go back to his post #127 and my post #128 and you'll see why I'm confused here.
 

Rob Allen

Active Member
What's the point of thinking outside the box if the box - human nature - is steamrolling on, destroying everything in it's path and there's no way to change it? If you haven't given up, please give me a specific example of what you're hoping to see because I'm clearly not picking up what you're putting down.

Luckily there are ways to steer human nature, or at least protect nature against human nature. Science-based education and management are prime examples. As long as we keep learning and applying what we've learned, there is no "same old same old" as you say.

Remember when we used to spray DDT on everything?

We've had science based education for decades. It has utterly failed and is increasing the pace at which it is failing.
None of us here know enough about this particular issue to offer solutions in or outside the box.

I will say this though. Elk populations for hunters is vastly more important than wolves just for the sake of having wolves.
 

Rob Allen

Active Member
So his saying "There's no way to change human nature", and my saying "No, there are ways to change human nature" are the same?

Go back to his post #127 and my post #128 and you'll see why I'm confused here.

You can control human behavior but human nature is out of human control.

I personally want to do very little controlling of other people's behavior and I seriously object to people trying to control mine. I won't be a tyrant and won't abide tyrants.
 

adamcu280

Active Member
We've had science based education for decades. It has utterly failed and is increasing the pace at which it is failing.
None of us here know enough about this particular issue to offer solutions in or outside the box.

I will say this though. Elk populations for hunters is vastly more important than wolves just for the sake of having wolves.
This is where you and I have completely different values.
 

adamcu280

Active Member
Even if adamcu280's values win out, ie, protect the wolves and decrease the elk hunting permits/bag limits?
That would be trying to control his behavior. Elk are his to hunt and there's nothing you can do to stop him. Don't be a tyrant! He won't abide!!! :eek:

For those that are interested in how management works (or doesn't work), please read the "shifting baselines" pdf I posted. It explains the importance of historical context and the shortcomings of a short-term mindset.
 

_WW_

Geriatric Skagit Swinger
WFF Supporter
Maybe we can just shoot the wolves in Canada before they get here? Why mess around? Go right to the source.
 

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