Idaho Culling 90% of Wolves

Salmo_g

WFF Supporter
Adam,

You're appearing to be as binary as I occasionally accuse Rob of being. This is not an either or choice. Habitat is being lost faster than it is being protected, and this trend is far more likely than not to continue based on our very own local example of degrading 9 or 10 times as much Chinook and steelhead habitat as we protect or restore annually, shifting baselines notwithstanding. We are restoring and protecting habitat, but true to the human condition, we continue to degrade it faster. I think that is what Rob is getting at.
 

Rob Allen

Active Member
Even if adamcu280's values win out, ie, protect the wolves and decrease the elk hunting permits/bag limits?

permits and limits should be determined by the health of the population..

that's why there should be Grizzly bear and wolf hunts in the greater Yellowstone region.

if deer and elk populations go down the amount of harvest will go down, however this will happen naturally regardless of how many permits you sell. You can sell the same number of permits but hunter success rates will go down.
 

Rob Allen

Active Member
Adam,

You're appearing to be as binary as I occasionally accuse Rob of being. This is not an either or choice. Habitat is being lost faster than it is being protected, and this trend is far more likely than not to continue based on our very own local example of degrading 9 or 10 times as much Chinook and steelhead habitat as we protect or restore annually, shifting baselines notwithstanding. We are restoring and protecting habitat, but true to the human condition, we continue to degrade it faster. I think that is what Rob is getting at.


yes in this specific example we need out of the box thinkers who can come up with ideas for restoring elk populations regardless of the continued degradation of their habitat.

this goes across the board for salmon recovery as well.. simply put we need to find ways to increase runs in degraded habitats..

rather than saying it can't be done we need to figure out how to do it.
 

Dustin Bise

reformed hot-spotter
yes in this specific example we need out of the box thinkers who can come up with ideas for restoring elk populations regardless of the continued degradation of their habitat.

this goes across the board for salmon recovery as well.. simply put we need to find ways to increase runs in degraded habitats..

rather than saying it can't be done we need to figure out how to do it.
can we just farm the elk and let the hunters pay a fee to shoot them in a pen? not sure if its about the food, or the thrill of the hunt.

ive noticed a lot of the hardcore hunters in the NW love fish hatcheries....
 

quilbilly

Big Time Hater
hmmm ask Arizona Oklahoma and Missouri
I asked you, can't you read ?

You're the one who spent a good deal of time posting about rebellion, don't tell me you lack the sack to answer a simple question here...or is this just an ITG deal where you just lack the courage of you 'alleged' convictions ?

Lol
 

adamcu280

Active Member
Adam,

You're appearing to be as binary as I occasionally accuse Rob of being. This is not an either or choice. Habitat is being lost faster than it is being protected, and this trend is far more likely than not to continue based on our very own local example of degrading 9 or 10 times as much Chinook and steelhead habitat as we protect or restore annually, shifting baselines notwithstanding. We are restoring and protecting habitat, but true to the human condition, we continue to degrade it faster. I think that is what Rob is getting at.
Of course habitats are being destroyed faster than they're being restored. On that point I totally agree. Where I don't agree is that we need to ignore history and manage for what we have now, as Rob is suggesting. If we do take such a short-sighted approach, there is absolutely zero chance of elk/salmon/wolf/whatever survival in the long term.

yes in this specific example we need out of the box thinkers who can come up with ideas for restoring elk populations regardless of the continued degradation of their habitat.

this goes across the board for salmon recovery as well.. simply put we need to find ways to increase runs in degraded habitats..

rather than saying it can't be done we need to figure out how to do it.
While I appreciate your dream of an outside the box solution that allows humans to continue to crush everything in their path while still maintaining hunt-able populations of wildlife, that's not how nature works.

Wolves, elk, salmon, orcas, seals, and everything else all co-evolved in their respective environments over countless millennia. In the last couple hundred years (at least here in Western North America) human impacts have royally messed things up. What humans have learned is that if we stop or minimize our impacts and restore what we've damaged before it's too late, nature has the capacity to heal herself. On the other hand, humans are not going to find a way to get marbled murrelets to nest in ornamental shrubbery once all the old growth is logged, or get SRKW to stop searching out chinook salmon and start eating seals. Salmon need cold clean water to spawn. You can put hatcheries on every river but if the water's too hot or polluted, you're not going to see success. Some out of the box thinker is not going to change millions of years of evolution just because you want elk to hunt or salmon to catch.

As someone that's been involved with the science behind the policy for endangered species in the US and elsewhere for ~25 years, I'll just say it's super frustrating that the speed of science is so much slower than the speed of policy. It also sucks to see the best available science get thrown out due to political whims.

Humans are a part of nature, not apart from nature. We can change how we interact with the natural systems but we're not going to change how those systems evolved.
 
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O' Clarkii Stomias

Active Member
Washington is so fucked when it comes to fish and wildlife, but the residents of such feel an self important need to cast judgements on the residents of Idaho. Fix your own shit before you worry about what's going on in Idaho. Get your own 1500 wolves and manage them yourselves. Pretty sure the level of ungulates in Washington couldn't sustain 1500 wolves. Oh, and your orcas need Idaho salmon, what's wrong with Wenatchee, Yakima, or methow salmon?
 

adamcu280

Active Member
Washington is so fucked when it comes to fish and wildlife, but the residents of such feel an self important need to cast judgements on the residents of Idaho. Fix your own shit before you worry about what's going on in Idaho. Get your own 1500 wolves and manage them yourselves. Pretty sure the level of ungulates in Washington couldn't sustain 1500 wolves. Oh, and your orcas need Idaho salmon, what's wrong with Wenatchee, Yakima, or methow salmon?
My disappointment is on an ecosystem level. It doesn't start and stop at state or international borders.
 

Zak

WFF Supporter
WFF Supporter
Washington is so fucked when it comes to fish and wildlife, but the residents of such feel an self important need to cast judgements on the residents of Idaho. Fix your own shit before you worry about what's going on in Idaho. Get your own 1500 wolves and manage them yourselves. Pretty sure the level of ungulates in Washington couldn't sustain 1500 wolves. Oh, and your orcas need Idaho salmon, what's wrong with Wenatchee, Yakima, or methow salmon?
I believe that Washington is hunting the hell of its wolves. It is definitely not an issue limited to Idaho.
 

Rob Allen

Active Member
Of course habitats are being destroyed faster than they're being restored. On that point I totally agree. Where I don't agree is that we need to ignore history and manage for what we have now, as Rob is suggesting. If we do take such a short-sighted approach, there is absolutely zero chance of elk/salmon/wolf/whatever survival in the long term.


While I appreciate your dream of an outside the box solution that allows humans to continue to crush everything in their path while still maintaining hunt-able populations of wildlife, that's not how nature works.

Wolves, elk, salmon, orcas, seals, and everything else all co-evolved in their respective environments over countless millennia. In the last couple hundred years (at least here in Western North America) human impacts have royally messed things up. What humans have learned is that if we stop or minimize our impacts and restore what we've damaged before it's too late, nature has the capacity to heal herself. On the other hand, humans are not going to find a way to get marbled murrelets to nest in ornamental shrubbery once all the old growth is logged, or get SRKW to stop searching out chinook salmon and start eating seals. Salmon need cold clean water to spawn. You can put hatcheries on every river but if the water's too hot or polluted, you're not going to see success. Some out of the box thinker is not going to change millions of years of evolution just because you want elk to hunt or salmon to catch.

As someone that's been involved with the science behind the policy for endangered species in the US and elsewhere for ~25 years, I'll just say it's super frustrating that the speed of science is so much slower than the speed of policy. It also sucks to see the best available science get thrown out due to political whims.

Humans are a part of nature, not apart from nature. We can change how we interact with the natural systems but we're not going to change how those systems evolved.


I would argue that. This is exactly what giving up looks like..

You said this. " What humans have learned is that if we stop or minimize our impacts and restore what we've damaged before it's too late,we've damaged before it's too late, nature has the capacity to heal herself. "

Where have we learned that?

What I have seen is that humans minimize one area of damage restore other damage and still there is little in the way of benefit for species.
This is doubly true for salmon and steelhead restoration, there essentially there has been none inspite of all our efforts.

How are spotted owls doing?

We may know it to be true but where have we put it into practice and had success?

Elk were a success story until we put wolves back in the habitat..

Big Horn sheep are doing better thanks to a concerted effort by the wild sheep foundation and usfws and funded by people buying expensive tags for hunts they'll likely never get to do.

Actually maybe part of that out of the box thinking is turning wildlife restoration out of government hands and let organizations pursue their passions for various wildlife species because government efforts are failing.
 

adamcu280

Active Member
I would argue that. This is exactly what giving up looks like..

You said this. " What humans have learned is that if we stop or minimize our impacts and restore what we've damaged before it's too late,we've damaged before it's too late, nature has the capacity to heal herself. "

Where have we learned that?

What I have seen is that humans minimize one area of damage restore other damage and still there is little in the way of benefit for species.
This is doubly true for salmon and steelhead restoration, there essentially there has been none inspite of all our efforts.

How are spotted owls doing?

We may know it to be true but where have we put it into practice and had success?

Elk were a success story until we put wolves back in the habitat..

Big Horn sheep are doing better thanks to a concerted effort by the wild sheep foundation and usfws and funded by people buying expensive tags for hunts they'll likely never get to do.

Actually maybe part of that out of the box thinking is turning wildlife restoration out of government hands and let organizations pursue their passions for various wildlife species because government efforts are failing.
Elwha River.

Gray whales.

Bald eagles.
 

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