Break ins on the Cedar

jaredoconnor

WFF Supporter
Juvenile thinking is organising people into victim classes and making excuses for taking from others. Juvenile thinking is not providing appropriate consequence to action. Juvenile thinking is making your problem someone else's. Juvenile thinking is shirking accountability. You can train a rabbit. You can train a human. A society that does not enforce its most basic laws begets lawlessness. In your world of hugs and unicorns this all goes unchecked and positively reinforced by either a lack of response or a positive one. Unchecked behaviour amplifies in frequency and magnitude. We have too many laws and don't enforce the obvious ones that separate a civilized society from chaos. More laws isn't the answer. More taxes aren't the answer. More jails aren't the answer. Providing avenues for treatment ect is something I'm all for but a person has to want it. Allowing citizens to protect themselves and property is also something I'm all for. You and I won't agree and that's fine as I mean no disrespect to you or you viewpoint. My solutions are harsh, simple, and ideally immediate. There are flat out bad people. I've known them. There is zero redeemable about them. They take and take and take until someone stops them and it's generally not the law. Bottom line is I don't care about your addiction, poverty, or upbringing if you are stealing from or violating others. In fact I could care less if you do drugs. It should be completely legal and available to poison yourself. I have no judgement there. The moment you decide to steal or violate me you made the choice to do so and that forfeits your right to go peacefully about your business. You can train any animal with behavioural conditioning. Humans are no different and consequences can be rendered pretty cheap. Ever been robbed? Had a gun shoved in your face? Ever found someone in your home? My guess is you would likely evolve your view beyond "it's just stuff and replaceable".

Mass incarceration doesn't work. It costs more money than anyone is willing to pay, never actually reduces crime and sometimes even increases crime.

Complicated problems require complicated (and often counter intuitive) solutions.

I will say it again though; I don't agree with pretty much any of the insane "solutions" being applied in Seattle. Durkan might as well put up a billboard saying "come to Seattle for free camp sites and great drugs".
 

Salmo_g

WFF Supporter
Or, because of cars. Horse thieves went the way of the buggy whip industry.
Yes, and replaced by car thieves. Only we don't hang car thieves. If we did, most would steal only one car and then stop due to death. Instead, you have to steal 7 cars in WA state to actually get serious jail time I read in a couple news articles a while back. The first 6 car thefts you get a pass on. Ergo, stealing cars is positively reinforced due to lack of adverse consequences. Those horse thief hanging vigilantes had the right idea for making society a more civil place I tell ya!
 

quilbilly

Big Time Hater
You're partly right. It should never require vigilante action to achieve what civil law and LE should do in the first place. I know you're liberal, but I didn't think you're at the bleeding heart end of liberalism. Actions have consequences. Presently, B&E has the consequence of positive reward with seldom any LE interference. That is why I think we as a society owe it to ourselves to legalize protection of self and property, with lethal force if that is what it takes to achieve the desired outcome. Then it would not be vigilante action. And lethal force is what it takes, since the B&E tweakers won't ever stop their B&E behavior. Like Dustin, I completely favor legalized drugs and the right to destroy oneself. But visiting that action on another by assault or B&E a car crosses the line. It's not civil. Allowing the lethal removal of B&E perps serves society's best interests by removing uncivil members. I think one shot, calling the back hoe, and filling out a one-page form should satisfy administrative and social interests.
While I'm a 'libruhl', I certainly am not on the side of the tweaker here, simply pointing out that vigilante ' justice would have consequences too...ones law abiding citizens might not feel are in societies best interests.
In other words, bumper sticker sloganeering and such is never the solution, but i can see how it does hold an appeal to some, just doesn't appeal to me.
The ends don't justify the means, unless of course you'd like to see elections overturned by those who would see themselves as having been wronged, and Mike Pence hung...which frankly is what you'll wind up with. That and roving bands of wader clad sportsmen wielding graphite spears on the hunt for parking lot perpetrators of the toothless variety.
No bleeding heart here, unless of course your views are as those held by Sharia law adherents, and even they only typically just chop off a hand for thieves, but sometimes they stone to death adulterers too, so....
Lol
;)
 

dustinchromers

Active Member
Mass incarceration doesn't work. It costs more money than anyone is willing to pay, never actually reduces crime and sometimes even increases crime.

Complicated problems require complicated (and often counter intuitive) solutions.

I will say it again though; I don't agree with pretty much any of the insane "solutions" being applied in Seattle. Durkan might as well put up a billboard saying "come to Seattle for free camp sites and great drugs".

I'm not an advocate for mass incarceration. I believe we are one of the highest if not the highest per capita incarcerated nations on the planet. I don't agree with prison as a business either. My solutions are pretty simple as I tend to reduce things into simple problems. I'm a simple man I guess. I just don't see it as complicated. I like to get to the root. For me it's stimulus and response. You ever train a horse or any other animal? You can get results with a gentle hand but you need to be absolutely consistent. Responses need to be immediate and absolutely certain in their nature every time without exception. If there was an appropriate proportional response to theft you would not need to "gun em down" or go all Rambo on the problem. Things like theft start generally in small ways. A young person shop lifting a small item that gets positively reinforced by the thrill of "getting away with it". This can escalate and exacerbate via hard drug use and morph into a lifestyle. Better to catch it early and nip it in the bud. You really don't have much of a shot once a behaviour is engrained into middle and late adulthood. The response needs to be profound at that level. A small consistent correction early on is desirable. From your above response you are likely a person whom I could converse with and find some common ground and found good ideas and solutions. I wholly agree that what we are currently doing isn't helping but hurting. I'm an "outside the box" kind of guy. What are some solutions you feel would be effective? This question is not bait in any way. It is a sincere inquiry. If I made you the Czar of theft elimination and corrections how would you structure your policies to garner real results?
 

dustinchromers

Active Member
While I'm a 'libruhl', I certainly am not on the side of the tweaker here, simply pointing out that vigilante ' justice would have consequences too...ones law abiding citizens might not feel are in societies best interests.
In other words, bumper sticker sloganeering and such is never the solution, but i can see how it does hold an appeal to some, just doesn't appeal to me.
The ends don't justify the means, unless of course you'd like to see elections overturned by those who would see themselves as having been wronged, and Mike Pence hung...which frankly is what you'll wind up with. That and roving bands of wader clad sportsmen wielding graphite spears on the hunt for parking lot perpetrators of the toothless variety.
No bleeding heart here, unless of course your views are as those held by Sharia law adherents, and even they only typically just chop off a hand for thieves, but sometimes they stone to death adulterers too, so....
Lol
;)

Put me down for the taking of a hand.
 

wetline dave

Active Member
If the prison system was run less like a boys camp with recreation facilities, TV's and other conveniences and inmates were forced into hard physical labor and very basic food they would not be tempted to be repeat offenders. Sherriff Joe in Arizona had it figured out and recidivisms was less than 10 percent. Then the ACLU got upset as prisoner rights were being infringed.

To hell with their rights and to hell with the ACLU. make prison hard and uncomfortable. They screw up again then off to an even tougher prison and the third time they are out, breaking rocks in the desert sun, no air conditioning and minimal heated cells and tasteless wonder loaf for dinner and malt o meal for breakfast. One leg fastened to a 35 pound ball with an 18 inch chain that has to be carried everywhere.

The touchey feeley rehabilitate mode does not work. way too many repeaters who just take advantage and then get parole early as they have found GOD or some other bs and are let out and then continue on the old paths once again.

Dave
 

jaredoconnor

WFF Supporter
I'm not an advocate for mass incarceration. I believe we are one of the highest if not the highest per capita incarcerated nations on the planet.

I thought getting the popo out and putting people in jail was your whole deal. Can you clarify what you would actually do?

If I made you the Czar of theft elimination and corrections how would you structure your policies to garner real results?

I would do the filthy "socialist" (according to some people) things that we do in Australia. It seems to work.
  • Increase taxes significantly.
  • Reduce defense spending significantly.
  • Provide free healthcare (particularly mental health).
  • Provide free contraception.
  • Implement work for the dole.
  • Increase police training, staffing and salaries.
  • Make rehab/treatment mandatory.
  • Abolish for-profit prisons.
  • Increase minimum wage.
None of this would ever happen though. It all depends on increased taxes. Americans don't want to pay as much tax as other countries that don't have these problems. I would be paying around 8-10c per dollar more in tax right now, back home. It's a non-starter, for most people.
 
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dustinchromers

Active Member
I thought getting the popo out and putting people in jail was your whole deal. Can you clarify what you would actually do?



I would do the filthy "socialist" (according to some people) things that we do in Australia. It seems to work.
  • Increase taxes significantly.
  • Reduce defense spending significantly.
  • Provide free healthcare (particularly mental health).
  • Provide free contraception.
  • Implement work for the dole.
  • Increase police training, staffing and salaries.
  • Make rehab/treatment mandatory.
  • Abolish for-profit prisons.
  • Increase minimum wage.
None of this would ever happen though. It all depends on increased taxes. Americans don't want to pay as much tax as other countries that don't have these problems. I would be paying around 10c per dollar more in tax right now, back home. It's a non-starter, for most people.

I didn't expect such a thorough well structured response. Thank you for that. I'm on for about 80% of the above. You're correct on the raising taxes to the average Joe part. I believe it will always be a tough sell when average Joe sees so little being done with so much. In light of that the common rallying cry is "tax the rich". I don't think that's all that bad of an idea really. Or returning to tax codes of the past perhaps where more weight was pulled by corporations and the Uber wealthy versus the ever shrinking present day middle class. I think any sell on more taxes to the middle class would have to come with more than a promise to do more with less. It's a tough sell. But if you could do it say on a state level in full jaw agape view of the public as you ring master the lions as they loudly roar, "but how will we pay for it". Well that might get some attention and street credit. If I saw someone actually get it all done or at least measurable obvious progress and it cost a little more I'd be hard pressed not to get on board. Do it for less cost to the common man and I'm a convert. I'll lower the gadsen flag, hide my arms, and paint my house red with your campaign sign prominently displayed in the front yard.
 

wetline dave

Active Member
I would be all for the US to quit being the defensive protector of many countries that pay little for their own protection, and yes that includes Australia among many others. As a country we could use that money for lots of other things and not have to put up with other countries not liking our social policies as we are using monies to protect them rather on our own social issues.

Dave
 

jaredoconnor

WFF Supporter
I would be all for the US to quit being the defensive protector of many countries that pay little for their own protection, and yes that includes Australia among many others. As a country we could use that money for lots of other things and not have to put up with other countries not liking our social policies as we are using monies to protect them rather on our own social issues.

Dave

lol.

The American government isn't protecting anyone but themselves. They destabilized Iran, funded Al-Qaeda and now it has bit them in the ass. Australians would very much prefer our troops were never involved in that mess, but we joined in because we are good friends. It's like helping your drunk mate out in a biff, even though he totally started it.
 
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