Montana FWP seeks input on Brown Trout Regulation

Natives4Ever

New Member
Please do.
Which state? Which subspecies? That data mining exercise could take ages. Lots of research on Rio Grande cutts and brown trout - incompatible. USGS is finding brown trout are displacing Yellowstone cutts in headwater streams in Montana. It’s been hard to tease out the relative contribution towards decline native salmonids by each nonnative given the stocking history, and the relegation of cutthroat to harsh and often protected headwaters where conditions are too tough for nonnative trout. Was it the browns, rainbows, water withdrawals, habitat destruction working in tandem to nearly eliminate cutthroat trout from most of their ranges? The research shows browns to be relatively incompatible with cutthroat. It’s a rich area of study now that agencies aren’t throwing nonnatives around indiscriminately.
 

Natives4Ever

New Member
OK: Colorado; Oncorynkus Clarki Stomias. I've got time
Excellent! You have time! Figure it out! Call the biologists. Research the literature. I haven’t done fisheries fieldwork in Colorado since the ‘80s, but I spent several summers lugging a backpack shocker around the Colorado Rockies for several summers to pay for school. Cutthroat conservation is a big field with hundreds of scientists across multiple states. I do recall whacking many brown trout in greenback streams west of Fort Collins. We put up signs for anglers detailing the diagnostic features of cutthroat versus brown trout. Sorry, don’t remember the stream. Kurt Fausch had the contract. Anyway, Joe Angler comes up to our field crew pleased beyond punch to show us his brown trout. They were all cutthroat trout.
 

O' Clarkii Stomias

Active Member
Well, maybe I don't care. To me it's pretty obvious that brown trout do better in channelized, dewatered, streams, with lower dissolved oxygen, that are very common through out the west where cutthroat and browns share habitat. It's not the brown's fault that cutties don't fare so we'll in these conditions.
My original comment was to name a strain of cutthroat that was extirpated by the introduction of brown trout.
 
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thesankers

Active Member
Bass fishing in Montana is about to blow up when all these people need to figure out what to do with the 19 boxes of 7" trout flies they have.
Is it possible that the 7 inch trout flies are a part of the problem? The widespread nature of this begs for some some commonality between streams. Perhaps the relatively new habit of stripping oversized streamers is detrimental to the fish. Trout are not bass and likely don’t standup as well to big hooks and the oversized leaders and big rods that go with them.
 

Natives4Ever

New Member
Well, maybe I don't care. To me it's pretty obvious that brown trout do better in channelized, dewatered, streams, with lower dissolved oxygen, that are very common through out the west where cutthroat and browns share habitat. It's not the brown's fault that cutties don't care so we'll in these conditions.
My original comment was to name a strain of cutthroat that was extirpated by the introduction of brown trout.
And I indicated the known causes of extinction of two subspecies of cutthroat trout - nonnative Oncorhynchus introductions. But the science does not exonerate brown trout as a threat to cutthroat trout. Again, unless you pay me, I’m not going to conduct a review of the literature for you. I would be happy to discuss terms. Otherwise, Google the following terms for a good start to your adventure into fisheries literature: brown trout cutthroat budy al-chokachy wood duck…
 

O' Clarkii Stomias

Active Member
Pay you for what......your science?
Still waiting for the strain of cutty that was extirpated by browns?
You science may not exonerate browns, but it's a bit of stretch to claim they're implicated.
To quote a friend: "cutthroat are whitefish in a clown suit!"
 

long_rod_silvers

WFF Premium
Is it possible that the 7 inch trout flies are a part of the problem? The widespread nature of this begs for some some commonality between streams. Perhaps the relatively new habit of stripping oversized streamers is detrimental to the fish. Trout are not bass and likely don’t standup as well to big hooks and the oversized leaders and big rods that go with them.
Possible. Sure...

Whats better for the fish though?
12 minute fight on 6x and a size 20 midge?
2 minute fight on 2x and a #2 (insert any oversized streamer pattern)

I'd guess the latter is easier on the fish.
 

_WW_

Geriatric Skagit Swinger
WFF Premium
Didn't we introduce non-native species in part because cutthroat couldn't survive due to the de-watering and altering of our streams and rivers?
Maybe this will help.
 

Swimmy

Let's GO Brandon!
Maybe this will help.

Can you explain how would that help?

Ranchers are protected by our state constitution. You think the Federal gov't has the authority to force them to stop irrigating? If so, on what grounds?

I'd love to see at least a min flow restriction implemented but I don't see that happening.
 

_WW_

Geriatric Skagit Swinger
WFF Premium
Can you explain how would that help?

Ranchers are protected by our state constitution. You think the Federal gov't has the authority to force them to stop irrigating? If so, on what grounds?

I'd love to see at least a min flow restriction implemented but I don't see that happening.
Not sure if it will. Water law is above my pay grade but the navigable waters thing has been successfully argued in the feds favor in other areas. I believe @GAT knows more about that history than I.
 

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