Montana FWP seeks input on Brown Trout Regulation

Swimmy

Let's GO Brandon!
Not sure if it will. Water law is above my pay grade but the navigable waters thing has been successfully argued in the feds favor in other areas. I believe @GAT knows more about that history than I.

I appreciate you sharing the update. I don't know much about the Trump regulation but I think we are all in agreement that clean water is a good thing.

I just know that here in Montana there is not the political appetite (by either party) to take on ag. I think they just had a big defeat in Utah on navigable water siding with the rancher.

Like Salmo has stated, there is so much case law supporting the rancher that I just don't see how anything changes.
 

_WW_

Geriatric Skagit Swinger
WFF Premium
I appreciate you sharing the update. I don't know much about the Trump regulation but I think we are all in agreement that clean water is a good thing.

I just know that here in Montana there is not the political appetite (by either party) to take on ag. I think they just had a big defeat in Utah on navigable water siding with the rancher.

Like Salmo has stated, there is so much case law supporting the rancher that I just don't see how anything changes.
I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that the more scarce a resource becomes, the more federal control there will be.
 

Natives4Ever

New Member
Pay you for what......your science?
Still waiting for the strain of cutty that was extirpated by browns?
You science may not exonerate browns, but it's a bit of stretch to claim they're implicated.
To quote a friend: "cutthroat are whitefish in a clown suit!"
Yep. We get paid for working, same as doctors, plumbers, and mechanics. Pulling together the science and interpreting it would be fun, but it would take substantial time and research. I suspect billing rates for private sector scientists is around $100/hour these days. With 14 subspecies of cutthroat trout spread across the West, all of them imperiled by nonnatives, this effort would require substantial spatial analysis of fish data and a thorough literature review.

I can point to streams across West that now have brown trout where there used to be cutthroat. I’ve watched in my own career as browns displace cutthroat trout. It’s alarming to lose cutthroat populations on your watch. I just don’t want to tell you where I live.

Should you want to self-educate,doctors Budy and Al-Chokhachy are the most involved in researching cutthroat/brown trout interactions, and they look at several subspecies of cutthroat. Al-Chokhachy published a paper on displacement of Yellowstone cutthroat by brown trout in a mountain in Montana. Extensive sampling in the ‘80s found Yellowstone’s to greatly outnumber brown trout. By the early 2000s, cutties were rare and browns abundant. They placed so cutties above a waterfall, protected from brown trout, and documented cutthroat did just fine in these waters when not with brown trout. The consensus view is that overlap in food and habitat requirements, a tendency towards piscivory, longer life span, and different timing of spawning provides competitive advantage to brown trout.

I look forward to your literature review.
 

CreekScrambler

Active Member
Is it possible that the 7 inch trout flies are a part of the problem? The widespread nature of this begs for some some commonality between streams. Perhaps the relatively new habit of stripping oversized streamers is detrimental to the fish. Trout are not bass and likely don’t standup as well to big hooks and the oversized leaders and big rods that go with them.
Maybe large-gape hooks and tandem stingers of the olden days were harsh on fish, but swinging and stripping large streamers anymore is done with shank or tube style flies with very reasonably small circle stinger hooks.

Using heavier gear has no downsides to the fish that I can think of so long as the hook is limited to a #2 or a #4.

It helps to not Bassmaster the hookset on 10lb tippet for a 3lb fish as well, but that’s only a matter of not being a ham-fisted idiot.
 

CreekScrambler

Active Member
To quote a friend: "cutthroat are whitefish in a clown suit!"
Whats wrong with being a whitefish or a cutthroat in any of those watersheds? They’re both native to Montana, despite the sportsman’s love and elevation of nonnative browns in the region.

Kind of reminds me of the reasoning behind throwing char up on the banks because they aren’t salmon and therefore useless.
 

Clarkman

Huge Fly Guy
WFF Premium
LOL. I like that one better.
It was actually kinda funny. This past spring, I was fishing the Deschutes, was asked by another fisher how the fishing was to which I replied, "redsides and short-fin grayling were all caught in decent numbers" The initial look I got was pretty priceless.
 

Stonefish

Triploid, Humpy & Seaplane Hater....Know Grizzler
Whats wrong with being a whitefish or a cutthroat in any of those watersheds? They’re both native to Montana, despite the sportsman’s love and elevation of nonnative browns in the region.

Kind of reminds me of the reasoning behind throwing char up on the banks because they aren’t salmon and therefore useless.

Have to agree.
Idiots that throw native bulls on the bank because they eat salmon and steelhead eggs and smolts. Like they haven’t done been doing that for ions?
SF
 

CreekScrambler

Active Member
Have to agree.
Idiots that throw native bulls on the bank because they eat salmon and steelhead eggs and smolts. Like they haven’t done been doing that for ions?
SF
It’s so frustrating to encounter the tarheel gamekeeper types. “That which isn’t game is vermin”, in the fine tradition of the British Isles, where there is hardly any wildlife left.
 

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