Thoughts on killing the record steelhead, fallout and ruminations:

alpinetrout

Banned or Parked
#31
Blah Blah, what about tribal netting? That's the real fucking problem.
That's exactly why very little progress is ever made in anadromous fish recovery. Everyone wants to blame someone else. There's no one "real fucking problem", there are dozens of contributing factors and we all contribute in one way or another, some more than others.
 

Citori

Piscatorial Engineer
#32
All the ills of the world are no excuse for doing what you can do personally when you can do it. The discussion this event has engendered brings value. More people understand about not killing wild fish and that it is wrong - no matter who does it, when they do it, and for what reason.

The killing of this fish is done, and cannot be undone. But perhaps the next one won't be killed. Good for us.

The two things that separate us from lower life forms are opposable thumbs, and our ability to learn. Let us learn... and use our opposable thumb to release wild fish.

My $.02
 
#33
You're fish, Peter Harrison, was a steelhead. It was a wild and clean archetype of the steelhead, brawling with disarming beauty. It carried more environmental significance than you do, considering all species equal, your fish was several thousand times more significant than you.
Naw, I actually liked that part. Just because someone is capable of running into a burning building by being bipedal, and capable of whatever else due to opposable thumbs, doesn't alone make them of more significance, and does not mean they would actually do it. I wouldn't figure on that dude running in to save me from a burning building - unless he was sure that the Mayor was gonna offer him the key to the city or something.

I actually observed a rainbow trout at rocky ford use it's snout to keep it's mate upright after someone released it and it was too tired maintain... the other fish was literally nudging it to keep it upright - and it worked. Another fish revived that fish. Another time I hollered at some migrant fellas that had several bait caught rainbows in a bucket and convinced them if they didn't return the fish to the water and leave that I would press dial to 911 (I had no cell service) - one of the fish was extremely difficult to revive and after about 30 minutes or so I finally had it swimming freely but it would not leave my side, apparently equating me with safety and survival rather than predation. I had to thrash a bit and scare it to convince it to move to deeper water where it wasn't so damned warm.

I think these small examples, and the behavior of game birds that mate for life, and many other examples show clearly that the size of the brain, or overall complexity of the organism, is not key to the commission of acts that we as humans would deem compassionate, and are more likely deeply ingrained instinctual reactions that just work in terms of survival. I agree with the above quote since natural selection unchecked would surely over time weed out idiots like this who are incapable of managing resources - ah, but the caveat, unchecked... as our current state of technology has made it so even the dumbest and most incapable human animals that are born in this day and age manage to live and reproduce.

Well written Zen.

A tad more than my 2-cents.

(as I was writing I had not seen your opposable thumb comment, Citori, that was not a jab at you in any way, just making sure that's clear... :) )
 
#34
To reiterate what I've said before.. I would urge people not to get caught up in the 'moral' or 'ethical' argument. Those could be justly argued by either side.

C&R is may not be morally or ethically superior to catch and kill BUT it is a vastly superior conservation tool.

It is all about common sense, practical results and the preservation/restoration of the species.

The great, well-enforced C&R waters of the world may suffer from overcrowding but they will be the very last places to loose their wild fish.

Eric
 

Buck

"Ride'n Dirty."
#35
If so many people here are upset about the catching of wild steelhead, then why is the "WFF Hoh Down 2009" going on when the natives are in? If your interests are in wild fish conservation, then you ought not to catch them to begin with. Again, the guy caught a legal fish, and said the only reason he killed it was because there was a bleeding gill. He apperently belongs to several fish conservation organizations, why can't we take him for face value?
Many Tribal Gill Nets kill fish of this size daily. They are decemating our fisheries, yet people feel the need to bash one guy, when the real problem could be taken up with more appropraite people. If I catch a wild steelhead, and it's legal and I want to kill it, I will. If I felt different about killiing a fish, I probably would try golf.
 

Mark Moore

Just a Member
#36
The general irrational response is warranted. Lack of a response would just insure that people continue to do this and think it's OK (see Buck's post above. In what world does legality=morality? Ignorance is not an excuse.) In essence, this guys being martyred for a good cause. We clearly can't win politically, so the state has forced us to create a social awareness that killing wild fish is not OK by other means. Violence? That's what people resort to when they truly believe in something. Not much is going to change that, and rightly so. Violence is the one thing that keeps the true issue, overpopulation, from further destroying everything. We're just animals trying to pretend otherwise.

The good news is that a lot of people will think twice before doing this again. Which is, after all, the point.

Zen, I truly respect your ability as a fisherman as I have, over my time here, searched a number of your posts. And 'Borg, as I live in Vancouver, I may actually run into you on a river someday.

However if overpopulation is the problem and man (as species vs. individual) is destroying the planet, then I respectfully submit my nomination for the two of you to be immortalized as the first to voluntarily give their lives in the name of steelhead recovery. You will have my undying gratitude.

It is specious to argue that because an individual fisherman killed an individual fish, glorious as he may have been, justifies your utterly self centered rage that said fish will no longer be able to propagate progeny for your "ethical" brand of recreation. Give me a F----n' break.

I genuinely hope when you are this mans age and have the life experience he has that you are never presented with a situation where you have to make a similarly difficult decision.

Get off your high horse or put your gear away.
 
#37
10 of us were camped on the hoh that whole week/weekend when this happened.

I can tell you with out a doubt, that fish would have gone back into the drink if any of our boats rolled up on that catch.

But, if it takes one dead fish to make 1000's to not make the same mistake... something good came out of it.
 
#38
Again, the guy caught a legal fish, and said the only reason he killed it was because there was a bleeding gill. He apperently belongs to several fish conservation organizations, why can't we take him for face value?
Because every picture prior to sticking his hands in its gills didn't have blood. Gee... Sounds to me like this conservationist specializes in conserving smoke to blow up peoples' asses. Nice that he showed his true colors before the end, at least now an honest obituary might be written.

Edit: sonofa... that was post 999??? and now I'm at 1000??? I was trying to save that for a report. Damnit. Well, guess I'm a "senior member" now. :rofl:
 

Jergens

AKA Joe Willauer
#39
If so many people here are upset about the catching of wild steelhead, then why is the "WFF Hoh Down 2009" going on when the natives are in? If your interests are in wild fish conservation, then you ought not to catch them to begin with. Again, the guy caught a legal fish, and said the only reason he killed it was because there was a bleeding gill. He apperently belongs to several fish conservation organizations, why can't we take him for face value?
Many Tribal Gill Nets kill fish of this size daily. They are decemating our fisheries, yet people feel the need to bash one guy, when the real problem could be taken up with more appropraite people. If I catch a wild steelhead, and it's legal and I want to kill it, I will. If I felt different about killiing a fish, I probably would try golf.
Just out of curiosity, have you ever caught a native, winter fish on the fly? or any gear for that matter? this is not meant to be a jab, just trying to understand your mentality towards this issue.
 

Flyborg

Active Member
#40
Zen, I truly respect your ability as a fisherman as I have, over my time here, searched a number of your posts. And 'Borg, as I live in Vancouver, I may actually run into you on a river someday.
We already have.

However if overpopulation is the problem and man (as species vs. individual) is destroying the planet, then I respectfully submit my nomination for the two of you to be immortalized as the first to voluntarily give their lives in the name of steelhead recovery. You will have my undying gratitude.
I wouldn't be able to enjoy the empty rivers then. Besides, you should be happy there's such thing as a "gun toting liberals" like me :)

It is specious to argue that because an individual fisherman killed an individual fish, glorious as he may have been, justifies your utterly self centered rage that said fish will no longer be able to propagate progeny for your "ethical" brand of recreation. Give me a F----n' break.
No, it isn't.

I genuinely hope when you are this mans age and have the life experience he has that you are never presented with a situation where you have to make a similarly difficult decision.
Age isn't some magical elixir that grants wisdom. I hope I am presented with a similarly difficult decision, and I hope age doesn't wear away my wits so much that I would do the same as he did.

Get off your high horse or put your gear away.
With regards to this statement, it's all perspective...
 

doublespey

Steelhead-a-holic
#41
How about this funny side-note. We (C&R advocates) have BBQ'd English Pete many times over. The pics have been posted repeatedly on every i-net fishing site I frequent.

Guess what?? The Forks mayor got what she wanted. I hear that the Hoh is elbow to elbow trying to catch the next "World Record". And I'm sure the Forks motels and restaurants are packed with all those eager fishermen..

Forget about him. The steelhead's dead. As others have said, get the laws changed. That would be the most worthwhile legacy I can think of for that great fish.

.02,

Brian
 

Buck

"Ride'n Dirty."
#42
Just out of curiosity, have you ever caught a native, winter fish on the fly? or any gear for that matter? this is not meant to be a jab, just trying to understand your mentality towards this issue.
Huh, All Hatchery fish. What's your point Jergens?
 

Mark Moore

Just a Member
#43
I'M curious now (pm sent).



I wouldn't be able to enjoy the empty rivers then. Besides, you should be happy there's such thing as a "gun toting liberals" like me :)
I am always happy about law abiding gun toter's, liberal or otherwise.


Sure it is



Age isn't some magical elixir that grants wisdom. I hope I am presented with a similarly difficult decision, and I hope age doesn't wear away my wits so much that I would do the same as he did.
Believe me, age does wear away your wits.



With regards to this statement, it's all perspective...
And age does in fact bring perspective...
 

Ed Call

Well-Known Member
#44
If so many people here are upset about the catching of wild steelhead, then why is the "WFF Hoh Down 2009" going on when the natives are in? If your interests are in wild fish conservation, then you ought not to catch them to begin with. Again, the guy caught a legal fish, and said the only reason he killed it was because there was a bleeding gill. He apperently belongs to several fish conservation organizations, why can't we take him for face value?
Many Tribal Gill Nets kill fish of this size daily. They are decemating our fisheries, yet people feel the need to bash one guy, when the real problem could be taken up with more appropraite people. If I catch a wild steelhead, and it's legal and I want to kill it, I will. If I felt different about killiing a fish, I probably would try golf.
Buck, I don't think I'm taking you wrong and believe that I agree with most of what I've seen you post in the various threads about this particular Hoh fish. I for one am going to the Hoh 2009 in 18 days for a variety of reasons. First is to enjoy a beautiful river, there are far too few of them. Second is to meet and hopefully enjoy the company of so many here that have taught me a thing or two, show me a thing or two or ribbed me as needed. Third, I hope to learn. Learn some technique, casting, water reading and such. These things I believe, for me, often are best learned while fumbling about and watching those around that fumble far less because they know and are comfortable with what they know. Fourth, but likely not finally, to fish and take a crack at catching one of those brusing fish. If that highly unlikely part comes true I hope it is a hatchery, but as doubtful as that will be, I hope to fight it well, land it quickly and enjoy the completion of the circle as I watch it return to where it belongs. If I fail in closing that loop and my inexperience causes undue and likely mortal harm to that fish then I'll be the next laughing stock here (more than usual of course) despite there being no legal reason for it. We all do what we do for whatever we do it for. I agree this has gone on way too long, but despite the length and mutliple threads there is a lot that can be learned from the process. I can only hope that I'm not the only one learning something here. Thanks for your energy!
 

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