NFR: And now wolves in the Teanaway drainage

martyg

Active Member
#31
We don't own wildlife, and any attempts to sway the argument by saying "wolves are hurting MY elk hunt" or "now MY hunting grounds won't be as good" is damn arrogant and misplaced. We are stewards of the natural resources that exist both visible to us routinely, and more so for the ones that aren't. We have a responsibility to live within and act accordingly in their natural territories - man is the introduced species in the West, not the other way around; and we're far more efficient at killing wildlife than wolves will ever be.

I don't advocate breeding wolves or placing artificial protections on them, only to respectfully provide them range. It's man's nature to kill what they fear, so why would we expect wolf populations to grow out of control? Who's afraid of the Big Bad Wolf - look in the mirror if you are.
X2.
 

jumbo215

Jasper hickman
#32
Are these the same hybrid breed wolves that were reintroduced in montana? From what I undetstad a actual wolf reproduces at a very low rate like 1 or 2 pups that survive a year. And the hybrid test tube wolve have like 8 pups per litter? Ive also heard that actual wolves would most likely target sick or injured animals, were as the hybrid will target the young almost exclusivly. A guy I met who hunts in montana said the state actually has a very tough time convicting you of killing a wolf because you actually killed a geneticly modified dog, not a natual wolf.

I wouldnt bet the bank on that but im curious to see how long it takes before its legal to hunt with AK s and quads.
 
#34
Are these the same hybrid breed wolves that were reintroduced in montana? From what I undetstad a actual wolf reproduces at a very low rate like 1 or 2 pups that survive a year. And the hybrid test tube wolve have like 8 pups per litter? Ive also heard that actual wolves would most likely target sick or injured animals, were as the hybrid will target the young almost exclusivly. A guy I met who hunts in montana said the state actually has a very tough time convicting you of killing a wolf because you actually killed a geneticly modified dog, not a natual wolf.

I wouldnt bet the bank on that but im curious to see how long it takes before its legal to hunt with AK s and quads.
Wow! This is getting better and better.
 

professori

self-important blowhard!!
#35
Are these the same hybrid breed wolves that were reintroduced in montana? From what I undetstad a actual wolf reproduces at a very low rate like 1 or 2 pups that survive a year. And the hybrid test tube wolve have like 8 pups per litter? Ive also heard that actual wolves would most likely target sick or injured animals, were as the hybrid will target the young almost exclusivly. A guy I met who hunts in montana said the state actually has a very tough time convicting you of killing a wolf because you actually killed a geneticly modified dog, not a natual wolf.

I wouldnt bet the bank on that but im curious to see how long it takes before its legal to hunt with AK s and quads.
The wolves introduced into Montana were members of a pack extracted from Canada-they were not hybrids. Wolf litters fluctuate in size in correlation to the availability of food. i.e. if there is abundant food the alpha female will feed well and will produce numerous ova. If there is a shortage of food she will not be well-fed and in extreme circumstances will not ovulate at all.
 

Benjy

Active Member
#36
I thought reintroduction was a great idea in MT and then learned the hard way what a bad idea it was. I would encourage sportsmen not to wait until it's too late- shoot them dead if they present an opportunity.
 

martyg

Active Member
#37
Are these the same hybrid breed wolves that were reintroduced in montana? From what I undetstad a actual wolf reproduces at a very low rate like 1 or 2 pups that survive a year. And the hybrid test tube wolve have like 8 pups per litter? Ive also heard that actual wolves would most likely target sick or injured animals, were as the hybrid will target the young almost exclusivly. A guy I met who hunts in montana said the state actually has a very tough time convicting you of killing a wolf because you actually killed a geneticly modified dog, not a natual wolf.

I wouldnt bet the bank on that but im curious to see how long it takes before its legal to hunt with AK s and quads.
Jumbo -

Quick note and something that I found fascinating - not to hijack the thread.... Dogs and wolves are actually two separate gene pools DNA and fossil records indicate that the early domestic dogs - those that hung around our campfires and garbage dumps when we had lower brows and higher imaginations - are significantly different than wolves. From those early domestic dogs we twisted them into things like little decorative lap dogs.

So while re introduced wolves may have been selected based on a propensity for having large litters, they are not dogs. Nor do I think that they were genetically altered. Also Google domestic Russian silver fox - or something like that. It should lead you to a really insightful experiment regarding domestication that has been ongoing for decades.
 

jumbo215

Jasper hickman
#38
The wolves introduced into Montana were members of a pack extracted from Canada-they were not hybrids. Wolf litters fluctuate in size in correlation to the availability of food. i.e. if there is abundant food the alpha female will feed well and will produce numerous ova. If there is a shortage of food she will not be well-fed and in extreme circumstances will not ovulate at all.
Oh like the ones illegally dumped in yellowstone by the USFWS in 1995 who spread across five states and increased their population by 25% per year instead of the perjected 2-5% per year, hows that working out for them?
 

jumbo215

Jasper hickman
#39
Jumbo -

Quick note and something that I found fascinating - not to hijack the thread.... Dogs and wolves are actually two separate gene pools DNA and fossil records indicate that the early domestic dogs - those that hung around our campfires and garbage dumps when we had lower brows and higher imaginations - are significantly different than wolves. From those early domestic dogs we twisted them into things like little decorative lap dogs.

So while re introduced wolves may have been selected based on a propensity for having large litters, they are not dogs. Nor do I think that they were genetically altered. Also Google domestic Russian silver fox - or something like that. It should lead you to a really insightful experiment regarding domestication that has been ongoing for decades.
Thats not what I heard,

http://westinstenv.org/wildpeop/?s=molloy+genetics
 

ribka

Active Member
#40
Well, I guide in the Frank Church. Does that qualify?
What outfitter do you guide for in ID?

I spoke to 3 outfitters that run ops in the Frank Church area at the Portland Sportsmen Show this year and they all complained about the uncontrolled wolf expansion over there and the dwindling elk and deer pops. They have a difficult time booking hunts now. I talked to a Game Biologist hunting in unit 1 in Idaho last year and he stated that the only way now to control the wolf pops are via helicopter hunting like in Alaska

I have no problems with wolves but states should allow a way to control their populations. At least ID was able to get a season this year. I have encountered wolves many times the past 35 years while hiking and hunting in WI, ID, Montana, Alaska, BC and Russia so do not have an irrational fear of them.

I know first hand they do not target the weak ( myth) and often kill and leave animals only partially eaten
 
#41
people seem to have forgotten that the deer elk and moose survived for thousands and thousands of years just fine before we came along and "saved" them from the big bad wolf. I have a lot of experience with wolves at my familys ranch in the BC wilderness, we have a huge wolf population, but the thing is, somehow we still have tons of moose and deer ( elk dont live in our area), true the wolves do take a fair amount of game, but if thats the way mother nature works then so be it. ITS ABSOLUTELY INSANE TO DRIVE A SPECIES TO LOCALIZED EXTINCTION SO WE HAVE MORE ANIMALS TO SHOOT. I love hunting moose, deer, grouse and geese but i also appreciate being a place wild enough to support a fully functioning ecosystem
 

Jason Chadick

A Fish, A Fish, A Fishy, Oh...
#42
I agree with the Derek and Professori...these wolves are not the product of some obtuse re-introduction act, they have obviously migrated. The fact is that there are plenty of remote, rarely traveled, wilderness areas in Washington that have historically, and should, support populations of Wolves and Grizzly. Although I have never seen a Wolf or a Grizzly I have been backpacking in many areas of WA and found signs (scat, etc.) of both of these creatures. There is no reason that they should be eraticated a second time, especially when their prescence is due to a natural search for new territory and food. I don't feel threatened by these animals, these pictures only confirm what many of us have been 98.3% positive of all along. Grizzlies and Wolves in the N. Cascades, now all we need is for the Californians and E. Coasters to say "to hell with this place, Grizzlies, Wolves, and Traffic! We better take our sprawl elsewhere...hmmm, Idaho? Montana?"
 

ribka

Active Member
#43
people seem to have forgotten that the deer elk and moose survived for thousands and thousands of years just fine before we came along and "saved" them from the big bad wolf. I have a lot of experience with wolves at my familys ranch in the BC wilderness, we have a huge wolf population, but the thing is, somehow we still have tons of moose and deer ( elk dont live in our area), true the wolves do take a fair amount of game, but if thats the way mother nature works then so be it. ITS ABSOLUTELY INSANE TO DRIVE A SPECIES TO LOCALIZED EXTINCTION SO WE HAVE MORE ANIMALS TO SHOOT. I love hunting moose, deer, grouse and geese but i also appreciate being a place wild enough to support a fully functioning ecosystem
Big difference between the US and Canada. You can shoot wolves in BC and all over Canada and can at least control populations up there. It is encouraged by all the hunt outfitters up there. You cannot shoot wolves in the US. ID introduced a short season but was shut down early last year. They are attempting the same again . It is against the law to kill wolves in WA, OR, WY, WI, MI and Montana.

Ban the hunting of wolves in Canada and see how it works
 

martyg

Active Member
#44
Well, I really don't have a clue as to what you are saying. Are you saying that the attached shows that these re introduced wolves are genetically altered? Because I am not seeing it.

If you are saying that wolves are dogs and dogs are wolves then how can they genetically differentiate them as pointed out? It just proves that they have different origins.
 
#45
id also like to make the point that i do agree with wolf management, if we hunt the prey we should control the predator (humans included) however i have always said that i would like to see wolf managment done by trappers instead of hunters, as far as i know most wolf hunters dont eat the wolf, just skin it and let it hang on the wall or rot in the bush, if it was a trapping thing then we get the same managment and somebody gets to make a living, however i dont think washington is in a position yet where we can start killing wolves. As for the claims of not killing the weak, my experience in canada has been that they kill the easy prey first, when thats gone they go for the healthier game. When it comes to occasional killing sprees, which did happen up where i am about 3 years ago, we had a perfect storm of deep snow with a crust on it, the predators ran on top and the deer broke through, predators are hard wired to kill and not pass up on an easy opportunity, most of us should now this from fishing, so, we presented with an easy opportunity for a kill, whether they need to or not, they will take that oppoturnity to do so, whether it is a trout or wolf, they are hard wired to kill, their survival in leaner times depends on it. In our case the wolves (they had a particularly large pack that winter) went on a killing spree, as did the coyotes, cougars, bobcats lynx, fox, all predators did. But then a curious thing happened, the next few years, the predator population plumeted, and the deer and moose population is currently exploding, at this point the local WANT the predator populations to explode again to to get rid of all these damn deer getting hit my logging trucks and eating my garden. As of yet the predators have not caught up with the herbivores yet, but i assume that in a few years they will and cycle will repeat, that's nature.
 

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