(NFR) Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquatic C...

Mike Etgen

Not Quite A Luddite, But Can See One From Here
Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquat...

New River Mike


Thanks for the supportive words. I'll just have to take you up on that fishing sometime. I wish I knew the answer to some of your questions. :dunno

When we talk about how homes have gotten bigger, etc., it reminds me of a very brief conversation I had a few years back with a neighbor in Roanoke, Virginia.

I'd divorced and moved there with my son, buying a post-WWII frame home that was 720 square feet upstairs with a basement that was partially finished - so about 1100 square feet total.

The neighborhood was filled with homes of similar vintage and style and one elderly neighbor who lived across the street always waved and spoke. One day I had a couple of minutes and struck up some conversation that included asking him how long he'd lived there...

"I bought this house when it was brand new in '49 and never have lived anywhere else since. And, we raised five kids here, too..." His voice trailed off there, as some of the memories surely came back to him.

Think about it - seven people, three modest bedrooms, an eat-in kitchen, and one bathroom.

Today many people would be ashamed and felt they should have done better...


Oncorhynchus clarki clarki
Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquat...

I remember writing a post very similar to this mention of bigger homes about a year ago. I agreee completely. I remember some one brought up an idea about having a limit on how big your house can be by the number of famliy members you have living under the roof. I know there are a lot of flaws that needed to be worked out, but it sounded like a good idea. It seems to me that there are a lot of people out there that have huge houses but only two or three people living under the roof, that is just crazy in my mind, not only is it a waste of money, but also a waste of natural resources. This idea would also be pretty neat in the way that people that would still want to show off would have to come up with some really cool house designs. Well the main reason for this reply was to just say good point, so there you go.

Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquat...

Oh I am glad you wrote cause I have a question that I would really like an answer to. How come the logging companies feel it's nessecary to cut down Old Growth trees? Dont' they have enough on there tree farms. I am not trying to be a smartallec I am really serious. and couldn't the lumber companies keep the cost down by not selling at cut rate prices to overseas markets? (I don't actually know if that is true it's just what I heard)I am all for logging if it's done responsibly and without cutting down old growth. I don't want to guys to loose there lively hood but it would be nice if there grandchildren got to see what an old growth tree looked like without having to travel to the interior of alaska.:dunno

Steve Buckner

Mother Nature's Son
Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquatic C...

Wouldn't it be great if we had a president who advocated that we cut back, preserve, and help humanity as opposed to continue to spend and exhaust the world? We need a president who acknowledges global warming, not one who refuses to attend the Kyoto Summit...

Did you know that we (US) spends more on trash bags for our garbage than most of the world makes in a year?

We're 25% of the population consuming 90% of the world's resources. Somehow we feel that we "deserve it", that "this is what God wants"...

Capitalism is very different from democracy, we need somebody in power who isn't there to make the lobbyists more money. We need a change.

While it's true that wood is a good product, we also have to recognize that if it weren't for governmental restrictions we'd have already wasted the entire Olympic Peninsula forests. Thank God Theodore Roosevelt had the foresight to protect what was left of the forests out there.

We've decimated the old growth forests in this country. Only 1% of the old Redwoods remain in Northern California. Every time I'm on my way to the Oly. Pen., I see trucks continuing to haul out 600-700 year-old trees.

I believe that the timber industry wants us to believe that they're doing such a great job replanting and regrowing what was harvested, but if that is the case, why do they continue to harvest old growth? The reason was pointed to earlier in this thread, it' because demand is higher than production and the only way to meet the demand is to harvest existing old growth. Wood is a great product, it just takes more time than we have to grow it.

Steve Buckner
Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquatic C...

I certainly hope everyone was just as irate when the Clinton administration closed many of the roads in National forests and then had many of the bridges removed to limit access and greatly impede fire fighting access. Then a Canadian gold mining company was given open pit mining rights in some National Forest lands.
As I see it this is going to put the logging under local control of the Heritage foundation and states. At most it is about a 14% max and probably a lot less than that. I preffer local control as opposed to Federal control. It is much easier to influence on a local level.
As for the Sierra Club I consider them to be extremists in their views.

Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquatic C...

hey wet line, hope you know that all the forest service roads that are built by the forest service for the exclusive use of the timber cartels is funded by none other than you and i. that's right, we pay for the roads that the eco-terrorists use to line their pockets. clintons designation of the roadless areas was a last ditch attempt to stem the tide of timber company-owned, tax-payer-paid-for roads being built. one more thing, if i hear another person bitch about forest fires and the need to fight them and protect the homes that don't belong where they are built, i'm gonna vomit. build a home in the forest and it might burn down. i'm currently building a 1200 sqft log home in denali state park, so i know the concerns. forest fires are a necessary natural process. i consider it an insult to our intelligence when someone brings up forest fires, like they are some sort of intelligent being, out to get us. akflyrod

ps. let me get this straight. you would rather have people like slade gorton and bob packwood deciding how we handle our forest. scary.

pss. forest fires are the friend of big timber companies. look at all the "salvage" riders that have been attached to such legislation as the ones put forth after 9/11 to assist families of the deceased. that's right. our friends from the gop attached or attempted to attach riders that allowed for weakening of our environmental laws onto 9/11 legislation. the gall that these pricks exhibit even in the aftermath of our worst national tragedy is nothing short of disgusting.

psss. i'm getting a little worked up, as you can see. but i will say one more thing. anyone who supports our current administration or any gop admin of the last 5 decades shouldn't be taken seriously on this site or any other concerning fishing and/or recreating in the outdoors. period.
Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquat...

Last time I checked the forest roads were a public good, except when closed for everyone. Show me a forest road (in a national forest) that excludes public use, and allows the use of private corporations. By federal law they need to allow public access.

I worked on the roadless initiative, and you're absolutely crazy if you think it was a result of blocking timber sales. The real reason was economics--roads cost too much to maintain if you can't sell timber to pay for them. Not only that, modern forest practices do not have the same requirements for roads, so even if you allow timber sales, you don't need all of the infrastructure.

By the way, the problem isn't with forest fires, the problem is 100 years of fire suppression coupled with a ten year drought. It's about fuel. The fires we've had in the past few years are a direct result of Smokey the Bear. At this point, we're better off in using sound forest practices to remove large, continuous tracts of fuel in areas where fire suppression has been practiced, or we need to be willing to pay the price of fires that burn millions of acres and destroy private property. We have the obligation to use sound practices in doing so. I could take you to hundreds of sites where timber sales have occured in the past 10 years on FEDERAL lands in Washington, Oregon, and Idaho, and you wouldn't know the difference!

As far as I'm concerned, GW is as much a pork-barrel politician as anyone, although it isn't exclusive to those in the GOP. Take a look at this year's budget, there's so much pork (from both sides) that I believe GW is setting a record in the "big Government" category, and has left many of his republican roots. To all you conservatives out there, beware, he may become a democrat afterall!

How many of you have actually READ the Aquatic Conservation Strategy?

FP, member of the Bill of Rights Party :thumb
Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquatic C...

Just to get this straight I am a Libertarian. I don't think either major party is a friend to anyone other than themselves. Both take huge contributions from big buisness and special interests alike!
The state of Washington has been ruled by Democrats for the last 20 plus years and just what have they done for the sportsman. Lets see ther WDFW has been gutted, the EPA has been gutted, Boeing was given huge incentives at tax payer expense as well as the high tech corporations. A marina was built on the south side of Magnolia that is highly sensitive or was, Asarco was given a hand slap, the third runway is being shoved down our throats with little concern about impacts, the two new stadiums in Seattle, one of which was voted down and the other miss represented, have been built with little in the way of impact statements. Major corporations like Boeing can build with very litlle government oversite, and I have personally witnessed the removal of contaminated soils that were in turn used for fill in wet lands.
Neither party is better than the other as far as I see
it. They both feed off the same barrel! They both bring about a certain amount of contempt. I check the voting records and who contributes what to whom. I do not buy into the media hype nor the party statements. I look and see how they vote and what they do.


C Van

coming soon to a stream near you
Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquatic C...

If you cant tell from the number of posts I am usually a lurker on this site, but this issue has me tossing in my $0.02. For us to put all the blame on Bush seems a little harsh. It has been said but I will repeat it, it is our own demands that feed the economic machine. It is up to us to change and inspire change of our ways, so that the demands for our timber and other natural resources decreases. The president has a lot on his plate, with defending our country and our freedoms the one that I would consider the most important. So I think we should be mad at ourselves for the excessive size of houses, lack of reuse/recylce programs, waste and junk mail (5 unwanted pieces today). I don't know how to change it other than every day to make my impact as small as possible, and maybe inspire someone else to do the same. And besides, do we really think that someone who has repeatedly married for money, not written one piece of legislation for the enviroment, and seems to change his views depending on which group he is talking to, is not going to be influenced by big money?:dunno
Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquat...

Lets look at the facts. The economy was already starting a recession when President Bush took office. Then we had a navy plane shot to hell and held hostage in CHINA,And then 9/11 happened.
Quite alot for a new President just into his first year of office. The war on terror isn't going to be cheap and his tax cuts have started to work. The amount of the defecit is not really a big deal in the large scope of things.The U.S has a person who stands his ground and does notwaver from his core beliefs. I say 4 more years for my Great Commander in Chief!! and to Hell with all you tree hugging, bleeding heart whining LIBERALS :bawling


Active Member
Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquat...

Putting aside who you are going to vote for, the question I have is whether these changes also constitute sound economic policy. First, are current regulations so obtrusive that the cost of lumber for building a home make the cost of housing prohibitive? I would argue other factors are far more important. Second, does removing environmental protections cause downstream effects at the expense of non-timber based businesses, e.g. commercial and sport fishing? I would argue that the economic value of healthy ecosystems due to sustainable and watershed-friendly harvest practices is far greater than what clearcuts or virtual clear cuts would generate.

C Van

coming soon to a stream near you
Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquat...

I do NOT let me repeat NOT support the logging, I just think that we are to willing to rely on goverment to make decisions for us. I can't imagine how many trees we kill with every law that we pass. Is local control the answer? maybe, the I like the direction the state is going with c&r laws. But I still think the dollar rules and no matter who is in office and what damage will be done downstream there will still be clearcuts. If we can reduce the demand, anyway we can, hemp, our own choices, education, then there will be less clear cuts. They won't cut down trees if the just sit on shelves collecting dust.
Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquat...

I'm very sorry for this outburst that's about to happen but do you really believe that he defending our freedoms. The fact is that we have lost more freedoms since 9/11 because of the choices that our president and his followers have made. Though it was the most horrible day in our countries near past, what these terrorists where trying to take away from us is our freedom and it is happening daily, we now live in a time of fear and are told that Bush is our only answer and we should be in fear. Ever heard of a thing called the Patriot act, most of the freedoms we hold most dear are raped daily by this act, due to no other but Baby Bush.
Here is a small list by the associated press of the freedoms I speak of:

* FREEDOM OF ASSOCIATION: Government may monitor religious and political institutions without suspecting criminal activity to assist terror investigation.

* FREEDOM OF INFORMATION: Government has closed once-public immigration hearings, has secretly detained hundreds of people without charges, and has encouraged bureaucrats to resist public records requests.

* FREEDOM OF SPEECH: Government may prosecute librarians or keepers of any other records if they tell anyone that the government subpoenaed information related to a terror investigation.

* RIGHT TO LEGAL REPRESENTATION: Government may monitor federal prison jailhouse conversations between attorneys and clients, and deny lawyers to Americans accused of crimes.

* FREEDOM FROM UNREASONABLE SEARCHES: Government may search and seize Americans' papers and effects without probable cause to assist terror investigation.

* RIGHT TO A SPEEDY AND PUBLIC TRIAL: Government may jail Americans indefinitely without a trial.

* RIGHT TO LIBERTY: Americans may be jailed without being charged or being able to confront witnesses against them.

Copyright © 2002, The Associated Press

P.S. This is not meant personally towards anyone on this forum, it is just one idiots opnion.
He spoke from above and said to us "What you catch you shall release!".

C Van

coming soon to a stream near you
Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquat...

There is no need to apologize to me for your opinion, and I hope that I do not offend you with mine. I chose to beleive that freedom is not free and i also think that the pres and congress reacted as best as they could with the cards they were delt. Hind sight is a great thing and I think the best part of the patriot act was that it was tempory. I would hope that with time to reasses the threats to our country the law will change.