(NFR) Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquatic C...

Kent Lufkin

Remember when you could remember everything?
Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquatic C...


Compared with Rwanda or Somalia, I certainly agree that the US is light years ahead in terms of freedoms and liberties afforded its citizens. However that doesn't absolve us of our responsibility to participate in the ongoing process of making sure those same benefits apply equally across the board and not just to a wealthy or privileged few or those with the right connections or platoons of lobbyists.

This thread started with a news release about a proposed relaxation of regulations regarding loggin in old-growth forests. By definition a news release is intended for dissemination by media outlets.

But you seem to feel that any news of scandal or wrongdoing is dubious since it comes from a media outlet. Does that mean you disbelieve the information contained in the release?

If you generally disbelieve or distrust the media as a overly 'liberal' institution, how else then do you find out about what goes on in this country?

How have you become aware of 'facts' that have been omitted in 'biased' news coverage that might lead a reasonable man to an alternate conclusion?

It's certainly tempting to shoot the messanger when he brings unpleasant news. And certainly easier than altering your own belief system in response to contradictory input that may be contained in that news.

I don't mean to seem as if I'm attacking you and will vigorously defend your right to believe what you wish. But I am curious to know how you support your thesis that 'everything's fine' in the US today and that government and big business are in some sort of harmonious balance.

Steve Buckner

Mother Nature's Son
Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquatic C...

"I'll take our government over that any day. You want to talk about corrupt governments, look beyond our own borders and you may find yourself thinking differently about our government."

In a recent study that took place late in 2003, the United States was ranked as the 18th most corrupt nation in the world...

The Bush administration is relying on people to just accept what they're saying and not researching the issues on their own. As others have mentioned, it is imperative to get your news from other sources than those that are funded by large corporations.

Steve Buckner
Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquatic C...

I never said that everything is fine here, just that I'm willing to deal with it and I don't think it's all that bad. In terms of the media, perhaps I should have clarified that better. What I meant was mainstream media such as TV news, 90% of Newspapers, and a majority of radio stations too. You also misunderstand me concerning scandals, I never said they were dubious and that I believe they don't happen. The mainstream media presents the facts, just not all of them. It is very hard to come to a "reasonable" based on what the media throws our way these days. I tend to like to get information from several sources mostly online since I have easy access to hundreds of view points. Most of what I comment about is stuff I have thought about, stewed over and finally come to some type of definative decision about.
"Compared with Rwanda or Somalia, I certainly agree that the US is light years ahead in terms of freedoms and liberties afforded its citizens. However that doesn't absolve us of our responsibility to participate in the ongoing process of making sure those same benefits apply equally across the board and not just to a wealthy or privileged few or those with the right connections or platoons of lobbyists."

As for this statement, I do agree with you but what is equal? How you define it and how every other American defines it will always be different. From what I've read and heard, Democrats think that making all men equal involves taking money from rich people (many who earned it faily) and giving it to people who expect a handout. To create a fair society, much less an equal society is a noble aspiration and dream, but I do not believe it is possible. How do you propose we unify this melting pot of a country to the point where we are all equal? I seriously am curios to hear what you say and am not attacking you at all. I've heard it said many times before, "this system we have sucks, but it's the best we've got". So far I haven't seen or heard anything to convince me otherwise.

Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquatic C...

I question how a study like that can accurately be measured other than by personal perceptions. Do you know what kind of data they used to determine that study?
I'm very curious to know and I think I'd still take our government over many others even at #18 on the list. We have a lot of personal freedoms in my opinion.

As for the Bush administration, what about the alternative administration under JFKerry? I've haven't heard about one thing that he actually stands for except that Bush is the big bad wolf. At least Bush does stand for something and he is protecting our country as he sees fit. From my perspective, the Bush administration recognizes problems and wants to move ahead by solving them rather than getting into an ugly mudslinging battle. Like I said before, we are choosing between the lesser of two evils and I believe the lesser evil is Bush.

Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquatic C...

Fortuna, Kalm, Skinny, and any others wishing to continue this discussion,
Hey I propose that instead of wasting space talking about politics on a fly fishing forum, we do it via email instead. If you have another reply to something I said, I'd be happy to respond via email, but I don't think I will be posting any more replies for the sake of keeping this forum what it's supposed to be about: flyfishing. Sorry for taking it so off track.

[email protected]

Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquatic C...

I agree with most of what you said politically and definitely agree with keeping this forum about flyfishing.I have stayed out of this one because I found out that arguing politics takes the fun out of participating on this board.Let's stick to fishing related posts.


The dumb kid
Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquat...

chucka, until you have seen dreamin, dont make bullsh!t statements about him. ive know him for the time since he moved here from cali, and saying he fishs a 500 dollar sage rod makes you look like a baffoon...for the books though, he does not have a 40 dollar rainshadow. its a 80 dollar rainshadow. 2nd cheepest pontoon on the market. think before you speak. why do i say these things? im in the same boat dramin is, only i dont have a pontoon, i have a 75 dollar floattube. 40 dollar rainshadow. i dont even own my own computer. you need to just think before you speak. no offense to you meant or intended in any way, but you yourself admitted to having these things, which makes you better off than us. maybe you should look in our shoes before you bitch about how bad you have it?
Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquat...

This post could not be more about fishing. The forrest controls the water; the water controls the fish. The fish control the fishing. Can we not make these mental jumps?
Does conservation have no place on this board? This post is about the easing of rules regarding our eco-systems. Such easing, read destruction of many valuable, very hard fought for rules, will just be more nails in the coffin called fishing. We don't care about this??
Why are some of us hostile to political discussions? Are we weak in our dealing with them? Politics are simply the way in which we choose to deal with our problems. Are we not to deal with problems of fishing on this site?
How hard is it to leave this thread and go to another one? Why don't those who object simply go and do that? Why demand that the thread be closed? Why are we always trying to shut people up?

Fortuna: Much as I admire your mature and reasoned style of thinking, it is not without fault in my view. This Cain thing. We could never put him on the ticket.
He is and always will be a member of the right wing. While he does show many liberal tendancies, he is conservative to the core. We must always have at least two parties so that voters have a resonable choice. You are blurring the differences such that there would be no choice offered. Accountability would suffer.

Sometimes these political discussions do generate s a certain amount of heat in the kitchen. I think it was Adali Stevenson who remarked that if you couldn't stand the heat in the kitchen, then get out of it.

I applaud this fine post. It is about conservation. Any fishing site that does not deal with this issue is a joke.

Bob, the Bring It On.
Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquat...

And yet Bob, sometimes things are better left to be dealt with personally. Talking about conservation is great, but we aren't making much headway here because we each have our own agenda. I'll admit, I have my mind made up about a lot of stuff and it's not easy to change it. Sometimes I think these discussions become so much like "a pissing match" as one person put it, but others can be very good and informative. Sometimes we need to control the fire before it gets out of control, or simply isolate it. I think posts like this often only go so far before they stop being effective and end up turning people against each other rather than working on solving a problem.

Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquat...


Much as I admire your Christian fervor, it does scare me just a bit and I think we need to be cautious when this issue is addressed. It is not one nation under Jesus as some would definitely like it to be. I hope you don't go there Paddy because we live in a world that is getting a bellyful of religious fervor.
A religion (Islam) that is interpreted as being out to kill non-believers is bunk to me (a non-believer). I should say also that Christians who interpret their belief system should be imposed on the non-Christians of our country is also bunk.
WE must let Muslims worship.
We must let Christians worship.
But please leave the the rest of us to think and worship as we believe. Don't shove your stuff down our throats.
Bob, the Freedom of religion believer and the freedom from religions believer as well.:thumb

Kent Lufkin

Remember when you could remember everything?
Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquat...

Another editorial in the Wall Street Journal (which I read regularly to balance out my daily dose of NPR) made an amusing point about supposedly 'open mided' voters who have no intention of voting for the other side, no matter how much lip service they pay to 'voting for the man'.

It's thesis: 40% of Americans would vote Republican, even if the party's candidate was Ivan the Terrible. Another 40% would vote Democratic even if the party nominated Attila the Hun. The remaining 20% are undecided and will remain that way until two things happen first: the summer Olympics have concluded; and the World Series is over.

Mike Etgen

Not Quite A Luddite, But Can See One From Here
Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquat...

New River Mike

I really, really tried not to add anything further to this post, but I'm surprised we're still talking about whether politics is fit discussion for this board, and how some of these discussions keep getting personal.

First, I understand that someone raised the idea on another post that we just shouldn't let this kind of thing in the Forum. As Chris reminsed us, we've had this discussion before and the NFR idea seems to be one way that "non-fishing" topics can be flagged.

How and when someone labels a topic as NFR is still a judgment call.

I do understand that some people want to use this as a fly-fishing site, period. That's where I began; that's how I found this site in the first place. Those people have every right to use this site for that purpose, and for those people, there's still nothing compulsory about reading every post on this site. If you don't want to read something, you don't have to. And if you read something that you don't like, don't agree with, etc., you STILL have a choice - you can respond or you can NOT respond.

Even if you do respond, there's yet ANOTHER choice. You can choose to not take the remarks or comments of others personally, and if others cross that line, you can choose not to respond in kind.

I know, that's a hard one. God knows, there's nothing about today's world that encourges or rewards collaboration over conflict. We're overrun by people who divide the world into good guys and bad guys, when in reality, about 99% of everyone is just trying to meet their needs and those of their families as best they can.

We all hear a lot today about "political correctness." If this board becomes a place where some conversations are off limits because some individuals can't keep from taking it and making it personal, then in my opinion, we'll all lose, and that's political correctness if I ever heard it. I think we're better than that.

IMO, we need to make responsibility more personal. Please, let's all take responsibility for our own behavior and feelings, and quit blaming certain topics or individuals for making us feel bad.

I value this site for the cameraderie, information, ideas, and even for the lively and sometimes heated exchange of opinions and values. I think it's freedom at its best, and it's best nurtured by each of us taking some responsibility for keeping it alive and healthy.

My two coins...

Bush administration changes to NW Forest Plan/Aquat...

Setting aside the flip remarks about the series and so forth, it really doesn't matter too much about what man represents the party. It is the the principles of the party, the issues, the past achievement or lack thereof that is really at issue when you vote.
The Republicans are extrememly cleaver in their PR (they would have to be to get away with all the stuff they pull).
And some years ago, they came up with this, "Its the Man, Not the Party." Brilliant. Now they could duck all responsibility for a rotten economy, tax cuts for the wealthy, axing the environment, thwarting social progress at every turn, and run some sort of Hollywood
type or cowboy whatever and hope to get elected. It was straight teeth that really mattered, not what you stood for or represented. Only the really stupid would hold a political party accountable, they argued, for what had happened during its tenure.

So I don't care if it's Ivan the Terrible. I'll vote for him if he supports those principles that I hold near and dear to my heart. And too hell with any pretty boy who is lying through his teeth about trying to help the country and being "for the people."

Bob, the Attila was actually a good man, Kent. He was just caught for being a mass murderer is all.:rolleyes

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