JoePa

All I can say is that I almost completely disagree with your version of the facts, assessment and conclusion especially in regards to Paterno's complicity in some kind of cover up. If that were the case, he would have been charged vis a vis the Grand Jury investigation which as far as I can tell was objective and completely thorough.
 
This may have been said already; I don't want to wade through 12 pages of threads to check: In his partial defense, consider Paterno's age and background. He was part of a generation still heavily influenced by Victorian reticence. Many men of that time - except for perhaps trading a few "dirty" jokes - were unable to have a serious conversation about sex, ever.

Paterno's life and death were a vivid example that part of living a successful life is to leave it at the right time. How much better it would have been for him and us if he'd died six months earlier.
 

freestoneangler

Not to be confused with Freestone
I guess I'm fed up with fallen idols and leaders, and what I see as our society's increasing willingness to forgive them for some unbelievably huge mis-steps.

Just this weekend Newt Gingrich won the South Carolina GOP primary, with a vote tally that included the largest share of evangelical votes. He achieved this despite having dumped two wives at the moment each was diagnosed with a serious illness, and carrying on an adulterous affair at the same time he was denouncing another fallen leader, Bill Clinton. I understand evangelicals' core belief in forgiveness, but Newt is so systematically flawed, that I just can't connect the christian belief in forgiveness of one-time sins with their support for Newt. He makes "mistakes" too regularly and he's too smart for it to be anything but calculated and the result of a deep character flaw. Then there's Dubya, Nixon, Blagojevich (and seemingly nearly every other governor of the state of Illinois). And that's just the tip of the iceberg in politics.

Back to sports, there's Barry Bonds, Marion Jones and the rest of the BALCO client list. That's just the tip of the iceberg of disappointing sports heroes. Go Nittany Lions!

Let's not forget our religious leaders starting with the catholic church which, right up to the top with Pope Ratzenberger, whose catholic church appears to exist in part to be an organized pedophilia ring. And lest we think that sort of overt moral failure is just a Roman issue, let's not forget the many home-grown bible thumpers like Ted Haggard and Jim Bakker whose personal conduct in comparison with rhetoric is a joke. Once again, these examples are the tip of the iceberg in religion.

In business, the length of the list rivals that of the politicians.

Etc.

To whom great priviledge and honor is bestowed, great things are expected. This isn't a demand for perfection. No one is perfect. A small mis-step or two with small consequences is absolutely forgiveable. But that's not what we're talking about with Paterno or the many other systematically failed leaders and idols who appear to me to be failing us in increasing numbers and increasingly ball-faced ways. We just keep forgiving them for reasons that I can't fully comprehend. I'm just not falling for it ever again. I want accountability for high failures of responsibility.

I'm out. Time to get my son back to sleep, speaking of responsibility.
Good grief Lugan, you may want seek some professional help for some of this...venting here on WFF is cool and we're certainly all here for you, but seriously.

You bounced from bashing Catholics to bashing Newt to George W. Bush to Nixon (thanks for throwing in Blagojevich) to Barry Bonds to Jim Baker...wow! Not sure how much history you read, but the world has always had and I do think always will have men and women who do bad things. Some get their just due, some do not -- our legal system is also imperfect and has been shown corrupt at times.

In the case of Paterno, he has not been proven guilty in a court of law... public court of opinion perhaps, but not in a court of law. Regrettably, his passing will leave a major void in getting all the facts.
 

Lugan

Joe Streamer
I absolutely over-reached venting on this topic on a flyfishing site. Mea culpa. bawling:

On the other hand, if you start threads on a controversial NFR topic, someone will fire up the howitzer every time. It was my turn. :mad:

And now I'll refrain until we get closer to the election in November. :)
 

bennysbuddy

the sultan of swing
Good grief Lugan, you may want seek some professional help for some of this...venting here on WFF is cool and we're certainly all here for you, but seriously.

You bounced from bashing Catholics to bashing Newt to George W. Bush to Nixon (thanks for throwing in Blagojevich) to Barry Bonds to Jim Baker...wow! Not sure how much history you read, but the world has always had and I do think always will have men and women who do bad things. Some get their just due, some do not -- our legal system is also imperfect and has been shown corrupt at times.

In the case of Paterno, he has not been proven guilty in a court of law... public court of opinion perhaps, but not in a court of law. Regrettably, his passing will leave a major void in getting all the facts.
I'm sure after reading this blog that I could benifit from professional help . Do you have any sources that may be able to assist me????
 

ribka

Active Member
You forgot to mention the Hon Dem Barney Frank and the selling of boys for prostitution from his
residence in DC.

Good grief Lugan, you may want seek some professional help for some of this...venting here on WFF is cool and we're certainly all here for you, but seriously.

You bounced from bashing Catholics to bashing Newt to George W. Bush to Nixon (thanks for throwing in Blagojevich) to Barry Bonds to Jim Baker...wow! Not sure how much history you read, but the world has always had and I do think always will have men and women who do bad things. Some get their just due, some do not -- our legal system is also imperfect and has been shown corrupt at times.

In the case of Paterno, he has not been proven guilty in a court of law... public court of opinion perhaps, but not in a court of law. Regrettably, his passing will leave a major void in getting all the facts.
 
I think internet slander doesn't count since anyone on an internet forum is, for all intensive purposes, universally regarded as an asshole,..or at least there's a high probability they are. No offense to this fine community,....or myself.
 
Penn State clearly became one of the best University's in the country, public or otherwise, and it was because of Paterno not just being a football coach but one who had a much broader vision for the University and the kids attending it.
This made me laugh, as it would some of my friends and colleagues on the faculty there, I'm sure. Penn State has become a pretty good university over the past few decades, although it would have to be a pretty big list of "best University's [sic] in the country" for it to be one of them. It is the excellent faculty that make Penn State, or any university, great. The amount of dollars brought in by the faculty at Penn State in the form of grants and contracts every year would make Paterno's gifts seem puny by comparison.

Wealthy donors have names on university buildings everywhere, but don't confuse that, or their football team winning records, with what makes universities great.

D
 
Richard, I think you're 100% wrong in regards to Paterno's influence on how that University itself has developed over the past 50 years. For full disclosure, I never attended Penn State but I have many friends and family members who went to school there (B.S. - Phd) and some who worked for the University as well. My Mom also went to grad school there in the late 1950's. Penn State is better than a "pretty good" University and I find it surprising that your colleagues there actually would chuckle at that notion. Paterno was not only concerned about the football team and athletic programs but the entire University as a whole. Through his entire tenure at Penn State he was intimately involved in creating the atmosphere and means in getting that high caliber faculty in place. There are many metrics in which to evaluation the quality of an University but here's the evidence for my position on Penn State, I didn't do an extensive search this is what I'm aware of:

http://news.smeal.psu.edu/news-rele...-1-among-recruiters-wall-street-journal-finds

http://live.psu.edu/story/56092

http://live.psu.edu/story/43177

http://www.psu.edu/ur/rankings/

None of these were accidents either:

"During Paterno's time with the Lions, Penn State has had 47 Academic All-Americans in football, with 37 earning first team honors. The Lions' all-time total of 49 Academic All-America football players ranks third among all FBS institutions and leads all Big Ten institutions.

In the 25 years they have been eligible (all within Paterno's tenure), the Lions have been recognized by the American Football Coaches Association (AFCA) 21 times, including 2011, in their annual Academic Achievement Award survey. Only Note Dame and Virgina (22) have more honorable mention citations.

In 2011, the Lions also earned the top spot in the fifth-annual Academic BCS rankings, as determined by New America Foundation's Higher Ed Watch with 117 points, followed by Boise State (107), TCU (101) and Stanford (100)."
 
Brookie, you cite some good stats for the quality of some Penn State programs. I'm with you on that. Including the athletic 'academic' honors doesn't fall in the same category as the list of Fulbright scholars that PSU has had, however. Give me a Rhodes Scholar over an Academic All-American any day (you realize that those Academic All-American honors are compared with other Div. 1, NCAA football players, right?)

As far as the chuckling, it is with regard to your comment that the growth in stature of PSU is due to Paterno and his "much broader vision for the University and the kids attending it." Heck, the Gates family has, no doubt, given more to UW than Paterno did to PSU, but I don't think anyone is saying we're a great university, "because of the Gates' family's vision for the University," least of all, the Gates.

D
 

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