Steelhead mortality

Charles Sullivan

ignoring Rob Allen and Generic
#17
Charles, Not sure what your referring to?
How many of the skagit fish thatwere caught in the genetic study last year died before spawning? When I was at the presentation last year, I remember that it was 1or 2 fish. Of course my memory has been diminished by my lifestyle.

Go Sox,
cds
 

Smalma

Active Member
#18
The 10% hooking mortality for released steelhead used on the wet side of the State is just another example of how assuring that any errors in the management of steelhead populations was on the side of the fish can significantly limit fishing opportuntiies.

Does any one else see the irony of the same folks demanding conservative management crying about lost opportuntiies as the result of that conservative management.

Tight lines
Curt
 
#19
How many of the skagit fish thatwere caught in the genetic study last year died before spawning? When I was at the presentation last year, I remember that it was 1or 2 fish. Of course my memory has been diminished by my lifestyle.

Go Sox,
cds
I believe that 1 died while it was being handled. Otherwise, 1 other did not reappear after it was last recorded in the area around the mouth of the Suiattle River.
 

Charles Sullivan

ignoring Rob Allen and Generic
#20
The 10% hooking mortality for released steelhead used on the wet side of the State is just another example of how assuring that any errors in the management of steelhead populations was on the side of the fish can significantly limit fishing opportuntiies.

Does any one else see the irony of the same folks demanding conservative management crying about lost opportuntiies as the result of that conservative management.

Tight lines
Curt
I understand your point. However, my point is that no other action has been taken except to limit sporties.

NONE, ZERO, ZILCH.

For this reason, I think that the listing was a mistake on the part of sporties. In particular flyfishermen have been most effected, because its our season that was cut. The hatcheries remain. The old ass bio.'s and their underlings will continue to see the situation through the old perspective but the reality remains that if the grand total of 300 fish (5% of 6000 skagit fish) are killed by a C%R season is too much then the unknown impact of the hatchery must be far too much. What about the native net fishery for the hatch. fish? Why do we fund hatcheries on the Nook and Skagit that requires a restriction on sport fishing, although not on native netting, to exist?
In the end sport fishemen and flyfishermen in particular are the only user groups restricted. Oddly, we are the only ones who care. Honestly do the others care? Tribes? by their actions the answer is no. Developers?...no. Gravel and gold Miners on the Samish, S.Fork nooksack etc?...clearly no.
Although I understand the reason why we have no seasons, I gotta tell you, I am pissed off by the lack of action by the state and fed.'s regarding the listing. They didn't even stop the rediculous gold miners on the S.Fork Nooksack. Public apathy does not detract from the lack of care demonstrated by both the state and the Fed's.

So what else have either the fed.'s or state done, other that restrice the very user goup who cares?

Go Sox,
cds
 

Smalma

Active Member
#21
Charles -
I agree that the ESA listing was a mistake. It has been obvious for year's that the factors limiting Puget Sound steelhead has been production issues - freshwater habitat and poor marine survival. Further it was equally clear that any listing would be ineffective in addressing those issues. That left only things like harvest and hatchery reform to worked on which of course limits mainly the recreational fishers without doing much for the future of the resource.

It remains my opinion that we anglers have no one to blame but ourselves for this situation. Most anglers were to apathic to get involved and the remained used the current PS steelhead status as an opportunities to use pseudo science to advance a social agenda - that was CnR/WSR fisheries. It is now a little late to be crying about the outcome.

There could be an opportunity to address some of your concerns if the Feds were to re-consider what allowable fishing impacts could be allowed on individual PS steelhead stocks. As part of such a process would an evaluation of the various factors (inlcuding hooking mortality) going into the determination of any new allowable impacts. In theory that could be done by an individual or a group but I seriously doubt the feds would look at any proposal that did not address the whole area as well the whole determination of those impacts. Because of the desire to perform any evaluation on the whole the best course for putting forth a "plan" for new allowable impacts would be from the co-managers. I do not see any relief coming in that direction for at least a decade, maybe several decades or potentially never.

In the mean time we get to live with what we wanted.

Tight lines
Curt
 

Charles Sullivan

ignoring Rob Allen and Generic
#22
It seems highly logical to me that poor marine survival and the constant and consistant influx of hatchery smolts are connected.

The X that marks the hex here is that no agency has taken any other action but to restrict sport fishing. Part of this is apathy, the other is that we haven't had enough retirments at the upper levels. Organizational inertia dicatates that dogmas remain the same (see sentence #1).

Go Sox,
cds
 
#23
Charles.....loved your comment!!!....the typical netting (or electroshock)tagging/measuring operation is a lot more traumatic than a simple catch and release. Maybe we should ban these studies by WDF.....
 
#24
Charles.....loved your comment!!!....the typical netting (or electroshock)tagging/measuring operation is a lot more traumatic than a simple catch and release. Maybe we should ban these studies by WDF.....
No kidding....cause getting zapped stresses every muscule in your body. And basically, that's all a fish is - one big muscule. :ray1:
 

freestoneangler

Not to be confused with Freestone
#25
I think the humane thing to do for a steelhead your gonna hill its beat them over the head with one solid blow from your favorite device. I know alot of people cherish there bonk sticks.
iagree If you plan to keep any fish, knock them stiff. Do not leave them gasping on the bank or hooked to a stringer.

As for C&R mortality, really hard to say for sure. If we're only considering single, barbless flies, in typical water temps, and reasonably quick to hand, gentle handling, I would say 1% or less. I think temperature plays a larger factor than extended time on the line or harder than usual handling -- but that's just my opinion based on what I've experienced. About 5 years ago, I floated the Big Hole in late August the last day the river was open to fishing. Water flows were really low and temps were up. I did not net any of the fish caught that day, rather turned the hook w/forceps while they were in the water. Two fish that day did not survive even with quick catch and release...I buttoned things up and simply enjoyed a row down the river after that.
 

Charles Sullivan

ignoring Rob Allen and Generic
#26
I have no problem with studies being done. The Skagit DNA study was excellent. The defacto C&R study that was done with it was even more telling though. In fact fruther studies using radio transmitters could be quite helpful in determining what the major causes of mortality are in the sound. I honestly think that the department leader don't care. It may lead to some uncomfortable conclusions and actions.

Go Sox,
cds
 

KerryS

Ignored Member
#27
I honestly think that the department leader don't care. It may lead to some uncomfortable conclusions and actions.

Go Sox,
cds
The last department public meeting I went to they readily admitted they had no idea what happens to steelhead from the time they leave the river on. They also said that steelhead are not making it out of the sound to the open ocean. Something is happening to them in the sound. Sounds like a local issue to me, not an ocean one, and I think you are correct, they don't want to know.
 
#28
Charles, Thanks for clarifying. It seems the only psuedo science going on is the political wills of leadership misguiding the science in the agencies. IMO, this in turn is the continuing loss of public faith to manage the resource for the long term. Many of the management schemes seem to be reactive once something goes south rather than proactive to be preventative. But, again, this is my Internet opinion :)
 

Ringlee

Doesn't care how you fish Moderator
#29
Charles.....loved your comment!!!....the typical netting (or electroshock)tagging/measuring operation is a lot more traumatic than a simple catch and release. Maybe we should ban these studies by WDF.....
You cannot electrofish adult Salmonids. The electricity can explode their spinal cord and effects adult fish more than juveniles.

As for the Skagit Study, that is an exceptional Catch & Tag mortality rate, if 1 fish dies. Natural Pre-spawn mortality is higher than that.

The Skagit Study is between Seattle City Light, Skagit Co-op, Skagit Tribes, and WDFW with funding by NOAA.

Are you saying that biologists and regular anglers have the same C&R Mortality rate and handling skills?
 

Charles Sullivan

ignoring Rob Allen and Generic
#30
You cannot electrofish adult Salmonids. The electricity can explode their spinal cord and effects adult fish more than juveniles.

As for the Skagit Study, that is an exceptional Catch & Tag mortality rate, if 1 fish dies. Natural Pre-spawn mortality is higher than that.

The Skagit Study is between Seattle City Light, Skagit Co-op, Skagit Tribes, and WDFW with funding by NOAA.

Are you saying that biologists and regular anglers have the same C&R Mortality rate and handling skills?
I found it remarkable that so few fish dies. After all a radio transmitter the size of a flashlight battery was shoved down their throat. I gotta believe that the average angler can be less damaging to a fish than that. Kudos to the team of samplers for having such a low mortality rate. Very impressive.

Go sox,
cds
 

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