DON'T BUY CND RODS

Flyborg

Active Member
You're going to have a hard time breaking a well made rod just from overlining it, even by quite a bit. Your performance should go to crap before the rod breaks.

As to heavy tips--it requires more energy to move them. Simple physics. I personally prefer to use as little energy as possible.

Most of this discussion is moot. The only common quantifiable factor involved in rod design between the manufacturers is the actual weight of the line it's intended to throw, and even that gets fuzzy with line makers ignoring AFTMA standards. Most rod manufacturers can't even agree on the definition of power and action between themselves. Of the many designers I know, not a one has ever used a word like mass or energy to describe a rod. Many of them still don't even use deflection boards, opting for the "shake and feel" in early design followed up with an actual cast later.

The fact that many well respected rod designers prefer lighter tips is merely evident that there is no one true course when it comes to rod design. Why? Because just like rods, we're all built differently. Our muscles respond differently, our brains work different, and even our nether counterweights all weigh in at different amounts. That's the reason a good fly casting instructor doesn't teach everyone the same way--they look at how you're built, how you move the rod, and teach you fly casting in the manner it best fits you.

So, as much as I enjoy the mental masturbation olympics, it merely illustrates why so many people look at spey guys like they're clown midgets at a gay pride parade. The human portion of the rod casting equation is a much bigger factor, and quite frankly, none of the fish give a fuck. You can find the right line and rod combo that suits you, but getting dogmatic about it and expecting it to be right for everyone is simply sophomoric.
 

James Mello

Inventor of the "closed eye conjecture"
You're going to have a hard time breaking a well made rod just from overlining it, even by quite a bit. Your performance should go to crap before the rod breaks.

As to heavy tips--it requires more energy to move them. Simple physics. I personally prefer to use as little energy as possible.

Most of this discussion is moot. The only common quantifiable factor involved in rod design between the manufacturers is the actual weight of the line it's intended to throw, and even that gets fuzzy with line makers ignoring AFTMA standards. Most rod manufacturers can't even agree on the definition of power and action between themselves. Of the many designers I know, not a one has ever used a word like mass or energy to describe a rod. Many of them still don't even use deflection boards, opting for the "shake and feel" in early design followed up with an actual cast later.

The fact that many well respected rod designers prefer lighter tips is merely evident that there is no one true course when it comes to rod design. Why? Because just like rods, we're all built differently. Our muscles respond differently, our brains work different, and even our nether counterweights all weigh in at different amounts. That's the reason a good fly casting instructor doesn't teach everyone the same way--they look at how you're built, how you move the rod, and teach you fly casting in the manner it best fits you.

So, as much as I enjoy the mental masturbation olympics, it merely illustrates why so many people look at spey guys like they're clown midgets at a gay pride parade. The human portion of the rod casting equation is a much bigger factor, and quite frankly, none of the fish give a fuck. You can find the right line and rod combo that suits you, but getting dogmatic about it and expecting it to be right for everyone is simply sophomoric.
Totally funny comments. I don't think anyone said there was a single action of rod :) As for clown midgets, I'd prefer to think of myself as a diminutive mime at the library.... in the back.... with your mom.....


How's that for sophmoric??? :)
 

yuhina

Tropical member
You're going to have a hard time breaking a well made rod just from overlining it, even by quite a bit. Your performance should go to crap before the rod breaks.

As to heavy tips--it requires more energy to move them. Simple physics. I personally prefer to use as little energy as possible.

Most of this discussion is moot. The only common quantifiable factor involved in rod design between the manufacturers is the actual weight of the line it's intended to throw, and even that gets fuzzy with line makers ignoring AFTMA standards. Most rod manufacturers can't even agree on the definition of power and action between themselves. Of the many designers I know, not a one has ever used a word like mass or energy to describe a rod. Many of them still don't even use deflection boards, opting for the "shake and feel" in early design followed up with an actual cast later.

The fact that many well respected rod designers prefer lighter tips is merely evident that there is no one true course when it comes to rod design. Why? Because just like rods, we're all built differently. Our muscles respond differently, our brains work different, and even our nether counterweights all weigh in at different amounts. That's the reason a good fly casting instructor doesn't teach everyone the same way--they look at how you're built, how you move the rod, and teach you fly casting in the manner it best fits you.

So, as much as I enjoy the mental masturbation olympics, it merely illustrates why so many people look at spey guys like they're clown midgets at a gay pride parade. The human portion of the rod casting equation is a much bigger factor, and quite frankly, none of the fish give a fuck. You can find the right line and rod combo that suits you, but getting dogmatic about it and expecting it to be right for everyone is simply sophomoric.
Words! Flyborg... I always find myself seeking wisdom from this board, either educational or entertaining... found both in your post! Thank you! Sir : )

Mark
 
Yeah, I suppose you can, but wouldn't it require more sweat from one's brow to fish like that? When lined I don't think you can get the energy back out through those light tips, you can get the energy in but you can't deliver as much back out on the delivery.
Yup. How a rod flex's when you're just 'whipping' it back and forth is very different that the feel you get with a line-load. Think 'sustained loading' on the rod blank.

"Overlining?! Okay, I will use a lighter line next time!" (320 grain short Scandi head on the 7126) Reason the line works is the grains, thought low, are in a very compact line head.
 

Rob Allen

Active Member
performance suffers and then people try to force it to work anyway then the rod breaks... I'll be honest this is not near as common as it was 10 years ago due in large part to advances in lines..

It was particularly prevalent back in the days of long bellies such as the original xlt's... you can't go up in grains so that the rod will load well at short range and then still expect the rod to hold up with an extra 150 grains with the whole belly out...
 
Fished a compact skagit head this evening, 630gr. with a 14' "Extra Super Fast sinking" polyleader on an old 12.5' 8/9 rod. Didn't use the CND custom but it doesn't matter. Clearly found that it takes "mass to turn over mass" so... the physics question has satisfyingly been answered. Whether the rod tip or the line or the combination of the two working together. Mass is required to turn over mass.
 
Not strictly speaking. You can substitute momentum for mass (mass X velocity) by adding line speed. For years I fished salt with a 9 wt line and a piece of LC-13 looped to the end, and it turned over ... but mass works better, especially at distance where line speed is lost and you're relying on the line's taper to complete turnover
 

SpeySpaz

still an authority on nothing
Not strictly speaking. You can substitute momentum for mass (mass X velocity) by adding line speed. For years I fished salt with a 9 wt line and a piece of LC-13 looped to the end, and it turned over ... but mass works better, especially at distance where line speed is lost and you're relying on the line's taper to complete turnover
+1 SS...you can underline and spank the rod all day, works fine with dry feet and for overheading. But in steelhead fishing situations where one has to actually turn flies over standing waist deep, lining the rod so that it loads without spanking it is better for most casters who want to achieve fishable distance with minimal effort.
 

yuhina

Tropical member
For years I fished salt with a 9 wt line and a piece of LC-13 looped to the end, and it turned over ... but mass works better, especially at distance where line speed is lost and you're relying on the line's taper to complete turnover
Steve,

All due respect,
Simple question, could you spey cast this awesome saltwater line?


Comparing overhead casting and spey casting is hard...

If you guys are interested in casting mechanic and line design, we should start out another new thread, not to hijack this thread...

regards,

Mark
 
Mark, I am guessing that you have never heard of the Accelerator ... with enough line speed it is possible for a lighter line to turn over a heavier one. I am not saying that it is desirable, but it is possible.

For what it is worth, I have spliced up more spey lines from scratch than you can imagine, and was splicing together longbellies and skagits and everything in between when the only commercially available lines in this country were the ACCELERATOR, Windcutter, and SA Mastery
 

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