Wolves on the Westside?

zen leecher aka bill w

born to work, forced to fish
I'm suprised that no one has questioned the genetics of these new wolves. Are they wild or hatchery wolves? Only wild wolves will do as hatchery fish...er.... wolves have improper DNA.

signed,

charter member of WWC (Wild Wolf Coalition)
 

ribka

Active Member
Wolves don 't indiscriminately kill animals and leave them

A friend who is rancher just found 3 dead calves . None were eaten wolf tracks hair nearby.

Thanks for the chuckle. Entertaining post

http://missoulian.com/article_5ff01772-938f-11de-9aca-001cc4c03286.html




Alright, Alex... you have more energy for this than I do (I'm really tired right now) but here's my 2 cents:

1. "First, Salmon haven't been completely absent from the rivers and streams here-everybody knows that!" - AM
Salmon have been extirpated from a huge amout of their former range. Grand Coulee Dam alone destroyed thousands of square miles of salmon habitat. gone- poof. Hells canyon comlex on the snake- gone- salmon gone! In the Columbia Basin there are only 1.5- 5% native runs occupying their former turf. my beloved Spokane river has not seen a salmon since the 1930's. BUT... how about the Elwha as an example? Those fish had been cuttoff from their former range. By your logic, any salmon that re-colonizes is an "invasive species". I believe this is bogus as "native" species readily re-colonize lost habitat.
2."Second, as you know, salmon usually don't go round killing anything that moves, where packs of wolves in Montana and Idaho have been documented to go through a sheep herd like a hot knife through butter" - AM
Wolves do not "kill anything that moves". Thats just hyperbole. They don't. Really. Otherwise Lewis and Clark would have found a barren wasteland devoid of any life save for ravenous wolves keying in on any movement and pouncing. They eat a few deer and elk... and an occasional sheep... big deal. Our cars kill more ungulates on the winter highways than do wolves.
3. "Third, since salmon haven't been absent from the ecosystem at all, everybody in their habitat knows what it takes to deal with them" - AM
I'm not sure what this means but if you are saying there is consensus on how to recover wild salmon runs you, my friend have been sleeping since 1975. Think hullabaloo over dams, hatcheries, netting Blah Blah on and on and on ad nauseum... NO CONSENSUS and bitter, historic disagreements on how to manage salmonid habitats!
4."No ecosystem is "enhanced" or "diminished" by the addition or subtraction of anything: the ecosystem simply IS." - AM
Again, I have to call BS... thats like saying no body is "healthy" or "Sick"... they just are. Sorry, lots of sick people and sick eco-systems around these days. The key word is system. it is and eco-SYSTEM... it is beyond just being, it functions as a system that creates homeostasis and balance (for periods of time). (Definition: A set of things working together as parts of a mechanism or an interconnecting network). Thus it is reasonable for scientists to say with certainty that preditors are a functional part of an ecosystem... Hence - Wolves have value in keeping the system or network, functional. Wolves have been a part of PNW ecosystems for many thousands of years. Absent for less than a century... They belong - they have value and they function in a systemic way for the better of the greater system.
5. "You know as well as I do, that the BPA spends so much money on salmon mitigation because it was required to by some idiot in a black robe" - AM
Actually Redden was simply enforcing a law called the Northwest Power Act (1980), which sought to balance the development of hydro power with the value of salmon and steelhead. It was an attempt to reflect the values of a society which valued a rich and long heritage of fishing for and existing with salmon and steelhead. And the imposed spring spill Redden imposed (that is still giving us descent outmigration of steel) is very reasonable.
http://www.snakeriversalmonsolutions.org/Hardball_Politics.aspx

Last point, while you cannot eat a wolf - and you can eat a salmon... both have values to the greater ecosystems in which they belong FAR BEYOND their value as simple food or fur. (maybe this is a key part of where you and I disagree). Both are essential even if they have had to swim and claw their way back into their rightful habitats and ecoSYSTEMS.

Tallfly guy: As for the wolves requiring an "emergency" in ID... that is simply a farcical political move to garner support for their Gangsta take on wildlife... which is - Wolves are competing for a Cash Crop (out of state elk license $$) - wolves gotta hit the road or suffer - functional ecosystem be dammed.

That's my (tired) take...

JW
 
Wolves don 't indiscriminately kill animals and leave them

A friend who is rancher just found 3 dead calves . None were eaten wolf tracks hair nearby.

Thanks for the chuckle. Entertaining post

http://missoulian.com/article_5ff01772-938f-11de-9aca-001cc4c03286.html

Isn't it also a sort of anthropomorphization to say that wolves did something indiscriminately?

I'm not saying that the wolves didn't kill the calves and leave them without eating them--but that doesn't necessarily mean that they didn't have a reason for doing it.

Like any other animal, I would assume that a wolf would have to have a pretty good reason for expending the amount of energy it takes to kill something. They aren't going to just waste that energy, going around killing for the fun of it. We may not understand why it happens, but that doesn't mean we should assign some sinister motive to it.

Jason
 
Thanks for saying please, but consider how foolish you have proven to be to the forum membership by attempting to exile someone to the sandbox. Just because you don't like what is said, you have NO implied or acknowledged regulatory authority in this instance. Simmer down and enjoy the discussion or leave it alone.
Really? I apologize if I offended or made someone mad. Perhaps I should have put a few smiley faces in there as I thought I was being funny. I was referencing a sandbox as in two kids arguing in a sandbox. It was suppose to be silly/funny/foolish to lighten up the discussion.
 
Tallfly guy: As for the wolves requiring an "emergency" in ID... that is simply a farcical political move to garner support for their Gangsta take on wildlife... which is - Wolves are competing for a Cash Crop (out of state elk license $$) - wolves gotta hit the road or suffer - functional ecosystem be dammed.

That's my (tired) take...

JW
That is very funny, because most "wolf lovers" reduce all the damage to wildlife and ecosystems in ID, WY, MT etc as "mother nature" doing her thing, and the emergency declared by ID is just a conspiracy theory. Again, very funny and entertaining post. Thanks for making me chuckle.
 

Kent Lufkin

Remember when you could remember everything?
Dick if you find any wolves in camp could you please ask them to leave quietly before the rest of us arrive?
Good suggestion. Not sure what I'd do if we got to camp and found wolves already there, lounging around the fire with a glass of single malt plotting an attack on defenseless livestock - or fly fishermen.

K
 
Good suggestion. Not sure what I'd do if we got to camp and found wolves already there, lounging around the fire with a glass of single malt plotting an attack on defenseless livestock - or fly fishermen.

K
I'll have my 3-wt loaded with hollow points to defend camp against any packs of marauding wolves looking to slaughter innocent fly fisherman indiscriminately...

D
 
"If it grows you harvest it, if it moves you shoot it, if it swims you catch it." What mans been doing for 1,000 of years and no tree/fur/feather hugging ecologist is going to stop it.

How do you like those apples?
 

dflett68

Active Member
"If it grows you harvest it, if it moves you shoot it, if it swims you catch it." What mans been doing for 1,000 of years and no tree/fur/feather hugging ecologist is going to stop it.

How do you like those apples?
i like those apples fine up until the last 150 years or so. if you want to say that we should keep things they way they have been for 1,000's of years, then you'll need to also roll back the technology and especially the population to what they were before. otherwise it just won't be much longer before there's nothing growing, moving, or swimming - including us. by the way, 1,000 ago nobody killed things just because they moved - that kind of disrespect (and lack of self-respect) is also an invention of modern man.
 
1,000 ago nobody killed things just because they moved - that kind of disrespect (and lack of self-respect) is also an invention of modern man.
Wolves have no respect I guess, as they "sport kill" and have been documented all over the place for doing it. So I take it you have no respect for the wolves either right?
 

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