NFR: No Solution, just dead kids...

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dryflylarry

"Chasing Riseforms"
#76
I see you never filled out a Federal Firearms form, those and more are already there. No permit is required to steal someone else' gun though.

These horrific crimes are a spiritual problem with a spiritual answer. Look around at our world today. Is it any wonder these things happen? Look at what is important to people today, particularly in the US. Kids attend MMA fights to see guys beat each other silly. Violent video games released just in time for the kids at Christmas. Fer chrissakes folks get killed in a stampede on Black Friday over a flat screen TV. The middle East is busy destroying itself and we're helping. The President brags about killing Bin Laden. Our civilization is in ruin, we never learn from history, we just keep repeating it. Is it really any surprise?
No, I never have filled out a form, nor own a pistol, but only own a shotgun and small rifle. I agree with everything you said except the silly comment about our great President. Since my tour in Vietnam, I raised a great son, and, because of that war, I never let him during his childhood years to play with "toy weapons" as shown in the attached website link. I think allowing your kids to grow up playing "wargames" is bullshit. I think it is ok when older however. Personally, I think these "toys" are total bs and have contributed to a lot of this violence of today:
https://www.kids-army.com/categories/Toy-Army-Guns/?gclid=COrB-6zbm7QCFSFyQgodniEAPQ
 
S

slider292

Guest
#77
You people on the coast are all wound to damn tight. Both East and West coasts. It may be that I live in the western part of America that we don't all think like that.

I'll say no more on this shit.
Yeah, you probably shouldn't. Last time I checked Colorado (see: Columbine High School) was at a similar longitude as Montana.
 

Cruik

Active Member
#78
Why is it that every time something awful happens, we have to have a knee-jerk policy change? If you want to commit resources to solve a social ill and improve the human condition, this is a poor choice. If we are going to spend our time and money on fixing a problem, we should find one that's fixable or at least stands a better chance at helping the most people. If we attempt to fix gun violence in schools, I suspect the returns will be marginal and in the process, we will inch closer to infringing upon our civil liberties (gun ownership and the rights of mentally impaired).

As a political issue, gun violence in schools is sexy and we are all being used. Cable news networks love it because they get such a great spike in ratings and all they have to do is harass children and families in the midst of tragedy or publicize second-hand incorrect information. Politicians love it because if they properly wield the sensationalism, no opposition can stand in the way of the agenda buried in the 'Keep our Children Safe Act of 2013.' "Mr. Senator, are you telling me you don't support keeping our children safe?"

The problem is we keep thinking society is going downhill. The truth is that crime rates, including violent crime peaked over twenty years ago and the senseless acts that keep us up at night were probably more prevalent in the 'Golden Era' than they are now. There are more people in this world and tragedies are a lot more entrancing when they are breaking news and not just something you read about in the newspaper. The news networks are good at exploiting our emotions because we love hearing about tragedies "That could even happen to you and your affluent, white, suburban family. *Gasp*" With this kind of live news coverage it's easy to start fearing for the safety of your children and grandchildren when in reality, they're likely safer than you were when growing up.
 

dryflylarry

"Chasing Riseforms"
#79
Why is it that every time something awful happens, we have to have a knee-jerk policy change? If you want to commit resources to solve a social ill and improve the human condition, this is a poor choice. If we are going to spend our time and money on fixing a problem, we should find one that's fixable or at least stands a better chance at helping the most people. If we attempt to fix gun violence in schools, I suspect the returns will be marginal and in the process, we will inch closer to infringing upon our civil liberties (gun ownership and the rights of mentally impaired).

As a political issue, gun violence in schools is sexy and we are all being used. Cable news networks love it because they get such a great spike in ratings and all they have to do is harass children and families in the midst of tragedy or publicize second-hand incorrect information. Politicians love it because if they properly wield the sensationalism, no opposition can stand in the way of the agenda buried in the 'Keep our Children Safe Act of 2013.' "Mr. Senator, are you telling me you don't support keeping our children safe?"

The problem is we keep thinking society is going downhill. The truth is that crime rates, including violent crime peaked over twenty years ago and the senseless acts that keep us up at night were probably more prevalent in the 'Golden Era' than they are now. There are more people in this world and tragedies are a lot more entrancing when they are breaking news and not just something you read about in the newspaper. The news networks are good at exploiting our emotions because we love hearing about tragedies "That could even happen to you and your affluent, white, suburban family. *Gasp*" With this kind of live news coverage it's easy to start fearing for the safety of your children and grandchildren when in reality, they're likely safer than you were when growing up.
I'm glad your child wasn't there!.................geesus.
 

Ed Call

Well-Known Member
#80
We, as a nation, waste billions. Invest billions elsewhere than within our nation. Investing in hardening systems that will further deter unauthorized access to our schools where our most vulnerable citizens are collected is not out of the realm of possibility. Never compare the costs to invest in such practices when the alternative price is truly priceless. This tragedy is as much about access control and mental health monitoring as it is about any type of weapons.
 
#81
The idea that no one should be allowed into a school other than staff, students or parents is, and no disrespect here, ludicrous.

Phone repair people, computer sales persons, cell phone purveyors, copy machine supplies and repair, book sales... the list goes on and on. Human error pervades every human endeavor. Don't make the school the perpetrator here. They knew the guy, he probably offered a plausible explanation for wanting to see the principal, his weapons were hidden and his vest was probably under his sweatshirt.

If there is any flaw in their plan it's that people don't have to present themselves to someone who can look at them other than via television cameras. You may have noticed that public schools are under serious financial stresses lately.

Perhaps someone should look at the meds the shooter was taking and determine if they helped turn him into a psychotic killer. There are some interesting side effects from some of the new ones out there now.

Craig
I take it you've never had to present a purchase order to enter a building before?
 

Klickrolf

Active Member
#82
Max Lucado
Posted this today after the news....
Kelly
A Christmas Prayer

by Max Lucado • December 14

Dear Jesus,

It’s a good thing you were born at night. This world sure seems dark. I have a good eye for silver linings. But they seem dimmer lately.

These killings, Lord. These children, Lord. Innocence violated. Raw evil demonstrated.

The whole world seems on edge. Trigger-happy. Ticked off. We hear threats of chemical weapons and nuclear bombs. Are we one button-push away from annihilation?

Your world seems a bit darker this Christmas. But you were born in the dark, right? You came at night. The shepherds were nightshift workers. The Wise Men followed a star. Your first cries were heard in the shadows. To see your face, Mary and Joseph needed a candle flame. It was dark. Dark with Herod’s jealousy. Dark with Roman oppression. Dark with poverty. Dark with violence.

Herod went on a rampage, killing babies. Joseph took you and your mom into Egypt. You were an immigrant before you were a Nazarene.

Oh, Lord Jesus, you entered the dark world of your day. Won’t you enter ours? We are weary of bloodshed. We, like the wise men, are looking for a star. We, like the shepherds, are kneeling at a manger.

This Christmas, we ask you, heal us, help us, be born anew in us.

Hopefully,

Your Children
Dear Jesus, please forgive us for devolving into a base society. We have chosen to replace you and your ultimate and loving justice with our notion of "fairness without consequence."

Please place within us the knowledge of your love, kindness and truth. We need it badly.
Amen.
 

dfl

Active Member
#83
Beside this horror what brings me to despair is, at a time like this, the number of posts that are without compassion for the victims or those trying to take part in a heart felt discussion of the tragedy, the state of our society and the many complex variables that we as a country must deal with now and in the future.
 

Jim Ficklin

Genuine Montana Fossil
#84
I have prayed & prayed for those impacted by this horrific event. I can't fathom losing one of my Children or a loved one this way.

That being said, guns, even semi-auto handguns & "military-issue" guns existed "back in the day." There were consequences for actions, there was discipline at home & in schools, and God & religion played a greater role in everyday life. There was a death penalty for heinous crimes, criminals didn’t have more rights than victims, and in general people were held accountable. What DIDN'T exist was a society & businesses that glorified violence in movies, in video games, on TV, in song lyrics, in the moral & ethical decay that has afflicted America and has adversely-affected generations of young folks who have been constantly bombarded with such trash.

There is so much we don't know about the "why" of this event, but guns were only a tool in both this and other senseless tragedies. Guns aren't the disease that must be treated & gun control/bans won't halt senseless violence. We can ban guns, black clothes, quasi-military gear but that won't cure the disease; there is a plethora of other “tools” that evil people can use to inflict harm on others. Taking-away the ability of honest & responsible citizens to defend themselves from violent acts will only create more helpless victims and won’t cure the disease. Our dedicated, devoted, and highly-prepared law enforcement professionals can't stop such events no matter how much they want to, they can only respond after the fact and this won’t cure the disease. Today’s society has many ills & THAT is what needs to be controlled & fixed.
 

Lugan

Joe Streamer
#85
People who argue that the existence of so many guns in our country is disconnected from our high gun-related death rate are on the wrong side of the data. Among developed nations, we are unique in terms of having so many guns, and having such a high gun-related death rate (murder and suicide combined). On the other hand, we are already more religious than other developed nations with far lower gun crime and overall murder rates. And I've yet to see any statistic that proves the US has 10x more crazy people than other nations. Sorry folks, the distinguishing factor is availability of guns, the most highly efficient means of killing large numbers of people in a short period of time. You can't do with knives, bombs or any other weapon what you can do with guns. And so the result is that the US is more like Somalia and Mexico than Japan or the UK on murder rates. The facts on this point are indisputable, and you should stop arguing against those facts.

But rest easy, because you have a different and far better argument against gun control: The gun genie is out of the bottle in the US and it isn't going back in. We have more guns than people in the US. Even if laws restricting gun ownership were enacted, those hundred of millions of guns would still be in circulation, only now, fewer of them would be in the hands of law-abiding and sane citizens. Crazy and bad people would still have guns, and thus we'd likely be in more danger than we are already in.

So if you're like me, you get really practical and conclude "I need a gun too", even if that's no panacea of personal and family safety. I was already planning to buy one this winter for personal protection in the field and at home. Of course, that won't do my kids at school any good, who are unlikely to carry an AR-15 in their backpacks. It's a shitty situation all around.
 

Freestone

Not to be confused with freestoneangler
#86
This tragedy is beyond my comprehension and my heart goes out to the students, staff, families and community.

Unfortunately, there was an eerily similar event recently. A 25 yr. old man from CT drove to Wyoming where he killed his father's girlfriend at home and then went to his father's community college classroom and killed his dad before killing himself. The young man had Asperger's and was reportedly mad at his father for passing it on to him. Now, reports say that Adam Lanza may have had Asperger's. Maybe it is just a coincidence that two young men from CT, both of whom reportedly had Asperger's and had parents who were educators, chose to kill their parents. It was truly a sad day for our nation.
 

Lugan

Joe Streamer
#87
There was another incident even more eerily similar in China yesterday. A man entered an elementary school and stabbed 20+ kids with a knife. But they all survived, as often happens in the recent spate of Chinese mass knife attacks. Knives and other weapons are just far less efficient killing tools than guns.
 

GAT

Dumbfounded
#88
As noted, the gun genie is out of the bottle. Short of taking the Hitler approach and removing all guns from citizens, I can see no way to remove guns from the equation. Even if the sale of all guns from this day forward was enacted, the insane and criminals would still have access to guns.

We need to look at why people turn to the use of guns and focus on that problem.

For me, there is no doubt the guy was mentally deranged. Anyone with the state of mind to kill 6 year olds at a grade school had to be insane. He had no political or religious motive. From listening to opinions of those in the mental health profession, I agree with their assessment that this guy didn't just suddenly snap but was mentally off for a long time. Chances are, they will find clues that indicate as such. He probably shouldn't have been roaming around in the general populas and his own mother may have been afraid of what he'd do and the very reason she owned the guns she did. She may very well have been scared to death of her kid and the guns were to protect herself from him.

Some people do inherit genes that cause mental illness. Maybe he could have been helped and wasn't. Maybe our system, as has been my experience, simply prescribes some meds and dumped him back into society. As my shrink fishing buddy told me, there are people walking the streets that simply should not be walking the streets.

This country needs to stop whining about paying taxes and start funding jails and mental institutions to keep the killers away from those they will eventually kill. The alternative is to pay taxes to fund security guards and start posting guards at every school and building... basically turning our country into a martial law scenario.

The root cause of these tragedies need to be explored and corrected. Not the end results.

Think hard about the fact there are those walking the streets who should not be walking the streets the next time you bitch about paying taxes that would go to keeping the insane and criminals off the streets.

Otherwise, there's always the Hitler approach with the Gestapo showing up at your door and removing anything from your home that could be used as a weapon.

BTW: my friend, the shrink , carried a 9mm handgun with him at all times because he knew our mental health system is so flawed that people are out there who shouldn't be. That's pretty damned telling in itself.
 
#89
People who argue that the existence of so many guns in our country is disconnected from our high gun-related death rate are on the wrong side of the data. Among developed nations, we are unique in terms of having so many guns, and having such a high gun-related death rate (murder and suicide combined). On the other hand, we are already more religious than other developed nations with far lower gun crime and overall murder rates. And I've yet to see any statistic that proves the US has 10x more crazy people than other nations. Sorry folks, the distinguishing factor is availability of guns, the most highly efficient means of killing large numbers of people in a short period of time. You can't do with knives, bombs or any other weapon what you can do with guns. And so the result is that the US is more like Somalia and Mexico than Japan or the UK on murder rates. The facts on this point are indisputable, and you should stop arguing against those facts.
Canada has a higher per capita gun ownership than the USA.
 
#90
Hell does have a placed reserved for these sick fucks. I only wish we could get them there faster. I have a three year old son and sat in front of the computer and cried, just cried, and then felt sick.

In regards to Gun control. Our house has firearms, to hunt with. The right to have those arms is a right. The right to have an automatic weapon that is used in the times of war is not a "right". SOmething like this happened in England several years ago, says a colleague. Parliment, the next day, outlawed automatic weapons. England hasn't had it happen since. Coincidence. No god damn way!

SHit like this does happen all over the world, especially in war time countries. However, for a country not in current civil war, it happens a hell of a lot here.
Excuse me, the second amendment makes no distinction as to the type of arms not to be infringed upon. At the time of writing, the flintlock rifle in common use was the latest hi tech small arm of the day, period!

America does indeed have a problem. But until the time comes when we are willing to admit that the problem is the crazies rather than the gun, the "problem" will remain unsolved. Junk in, junk out. The equation or algorithm is flawed, therefore it cannot produce a viable answer.

Condolences to those who lost a loved one at the hand of some crazy nut case.
 
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