NFR How to prevent firearm based murder/s

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scottr

Active Member
#61
Guys, the thread ask for thought through proposals that would keep this kind of thing from happening again. There's been one or two. Lets hear some more. Give it some thought. What could/might work.
Something I having been thinking about is mandatory military (conscripted) service (National Guard, Militia, call it what you want) for every American man and woman ages 18-24. This would be similar to other countries that require conscripted service like Switzerland, Israel, Denmark.

The program would include basic training so that individuals learn respect for authority, chain of command, physical fitness, discipline, and gun safety, operation, and the lethal nature of firearms. I see a lot of positive life skills that would come from a program like this. Let them play Call of Duty for real.

After 8-12 months they would be done and could continue on with their lives (college, work, etc) but for those who chose we would also give these individuals the opportunity to continue with their service where they would earn the opportunity to take advantage of the GI Bill, advancement in rank, but also deployment to potential hostile theaters.

Switzerland issues every conscripted soldier a Sig Sauer 5.56 Semi/Full Auto Battle Rifle that they keep locked up at home. It is not uncommon to see people walking to or from training or service carrying their weapon out in the wide open.

Switzerland like many developed nations has a population that deals with cheating spouses, job loss, a-hole bosses, finical loss, substance abuse, mental illness, video games, cop shows on TV, and the Borne Identity on the big screen yet they have one of the LOWEST RATES murder by firearms in the developed world. Switzerland has strict firearms laws for personally owned recreational or self defense type guns but given that the population 8 million has access to 1.2-3 million arms in private homes something (maybe the military training) is helping prevent gun use in violent crimes.


From Wikipedia on the Swiss Military:

The Military of Switzerland perform the roles of Switzerland's militia and regular army. Under the country's militia system, professional soldiers constitute about 5 percent of military personnel; the rest are male citizen conscripts 19 to 34 (in some cases up to 50) years old...

The structure of the Swiss militia system stipulates that the soldiers keep their own personal equipment, including all personally assigned weapons, at home (until 2007 this also included ammunition). Compulsory military service concerns all male Swiss citizens, with women serving voluntarily. Males usually receive initial orders at the age of 18 for military conscription eligibility screening. About two-thirds of young Swiss men are found suitable for service, while alternative service exists for those found unsuitable. Annually, approximately 20,000 persons are trained in basic training for a duration from 18 to 21 weeks (increased from 15 weeks, in 2003).

Weapons marked in bold are considered personal equipment of the soldier, who is responsible for their well-functioning and must keep them at home until the end of the military service (unless living near an external border of Switzerland).[33] Between brackets is the number of such weapons in personal equipment as of 31 January 2009.[34]Swiss Army knives are also issued, but are not considered weapons.
[edit]​

Weapons marked in bold are considered personal equipment of the soldier, who is responsible for their well-functioning and must keep them at home until the end of the military service (unless living near an external border of Switzerland).[33] Between brackets is the number of such weapons in personal equipment as of 31 January 2009.
Individual weapons

Sturmgewehr 90 assault rifle (171,283)

Sturmgewehr 57 battle rifle (2,392)

Pistole 75 semi-automatic pistol (27,831)

Pistole 49 semi-automatic pistol (1,360)
 

scottr

Active Member
#63
You're missing the point, most of these shootings aren't done by kids playing online games before the recommended ages. Most massacres aren't done by kids that still live with their parents. The point is to collect live real time data to define imminent threats on high risk males. Most boys play some form of war games, most of them grow out of it. It's the kids and adults that don't you'd want to watch...

Why would I flip out if my kid wants to check out naked babes? Seems like a good opportunity for a discussion about fake boobs and photoshop. Better that than I find him shooting his buddy's guns unsupervised...
My point was before we start going Minority Report on a bunch of people who are playing Halo let's get these parents to look at what their kids are doing (from playing games they shouldn't to posting videos to YouTube of the dry ice bombs they used to blow up a honey bucket)

I play a lot of FPS and other m-rated games. I also work with a major games publisher as a client. I don't buy into the notion that video games are turning our nations young men into a bunch of unfeeling killers but for young kids (under 16) and certain people pre-disposed to mental illness (paranoid-schizophrenic, bi-polar, manic depressive) and with other cognitive issues these games are not appropriate and the parents need to get involved. I think we have a lot of parents who are checked out from what their kids are doing and this is a shame.
 

scottr

Active Member
#64
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

Scott the Swiss are way up there on firearm deaths in the developed world. Though it's because they shoot themselves! Even if we did as well as the Swiss we'd still be way better off. I for one would support a notion of a national service requirement that involves firearms training and overseas service.
Yeah I was thinking more about murder in the context of the OP. Take out suicides and Switzerland drops way down on that list.
 

Klickrolf

Active Member
#65
OP title, "How to prevent firearm based murder/s"(?)

Let's cut to the chase, this is obvious to me.

Here's how we do it. Convince everyone that there is a loving God. A Creator God who made each and every one of us for a purpose, a good purpose. There must be "ultimate justice"...we must convince ourselves that we are ultimately responsible for our actions and will be held to account. We need to teach this from Kindergarden through high school. Then in college we can debate if God exists.

If Adam Lanza believed this I don't think he'd have done what he did.
 

wadin' boot

Donny, you're out of your element...
#66
Yeah I was thinking more about murder in the context of the OP. Take out suicides and Switzerland drops way down on that list.
That list is sorta interesting. Slovenia....looks like a real blast...40x more likely to shoot self than to get shot by another. We're way lower on that ratio...I'd love to hear Rick Steve's take on the miserable people of Europe...
 

Ed Call

Well-Known Member
#67
There are many facets to mitigating these violent mass victim crimes. Some are getting more attention than others. I'll take a swipe at a few not entirely thought out options.

Every public school will have one armed LEO for each 500 students. The LEO will be paid 50k annually, that cost will be born by each student in the school, or $500 per student for that officer. As a parent, that will cost me $1000 because I have two priceless daughters entrusted in that school systems care.

Every public school will have a single access controlled entry point for the public. One. This one entry will have an exterior call system to get in. Once in, the individual requesting access will enter a controlled containment area. Dropping of the mail, delivery or something, show the paperwork and go out the door you entered. They never get further than that containment area. Those needing to go further must wait, have credentials verified, have the propose of their visit verified and then and only then does door number two open. This containment corridor could be fancy or a retrofitted chain link reinforced "dog run" that serves the purpose of population segregation and keeping the outsider away from the high value assets inside.

Something goes violently wrong here, few are exposed possible victims, lockdown is possible, containment is high.

Teachers should carry. If containment plan A fails up front, enough alarm and commotion has happened that there will be few surprises. Part of their continuing education program will be firearms maintenance, safety and qualification. This is a job requirement.

Add the mental health improvements and patient registry, with designated diagnoses that are restrictive to gun ownership or possession. I do not have a problem with strict gun control permitting, tracking, required safety courses, range qualification standards and safe storage requirements. Most law abiding citizens will do what the law demands. The lawless will have to run the gauntlet in the schools to impart violence on our most vulnerable of precious resources.

We protect our crap, our trinkets and money tougher than what I've outlined. Why not our children?

A multifaceted approach is needed. It is MOSTLY access control and a chance of culture in our educational institutions. There are legislative and regulatory needs too, but if they can't get in they can not have their way with our children while inside. No longer should our children be the fish in the barrel.
 
#68
cant confirm this is accurate, but claims numbers are from FBI Death stats.

Vehicle related deaths 34,000 plus

Unintentional Poisoning 31,000 plus

"NON" Firearm related Homicides 16,000 plus

Firearm Homicide 11,000 plus.

300 million or so people in this country.

285 million firearms in the country. (no wonder why we will never be invaded)

100 million people own or have immediate access to firearms.

yet annualy 20 out of the 100 million, nutbags, do something like this at a work place, in a living room or in a school.

There are probably 20 times the number of assault rifles owned today, as compared to twenty years ago. yet gun crimes are down and have been steadily falling for twenty years. i dont know this number but im wondering how many assault rifles were used in crimes twenty years ago as compared to now with maybe twenty or more times the number of these weapons as we had then.
 
F

fifafu

Guest
#69
Okay how about we demand all gun violence be prosecuted fully? The Franklin county prosecutor has decided to plea down most of the drive by shooters due to court costs involved in a trial. So this leads to gangbangers doing months for assault instead of years for attempted murder. Let's quit letting the violent criminals off easy. Let's also prosecute all minors over 12 as adults in the cases involving guns.

You want a solution? Let's start with the criminals.
 
#70
You are neglecting to mention the fact that every scenario you mentioned was during a time and place when guns alone could have defended the victims in question, we are far past the point where guns alone can defend against a tyrannical government.
If the government wanted to eradicate certain people in our country all the guns in the world couldn't stop them from smart bombing your ass from a thousand miles away.
Just because someone put a bunch of outdated info together doesn't mean it relates to the world we live in today.
Yup I quoted, I thought it was some kind of fact which is was, what I want to know is WTF is a Professional amateur
 
S

slider292

Guest
#72
OP title, "How to prevent firearm based murder/s"(?)

Let's cut to the chase, this is obvious to me.

Here's how we do it. Convince everyone that there is a loving God. A Creator God who made each and every one of us for a purpose, a good purpose. There must be "ultimate justice"...we must convince ourselves that we are ultimately responsible for our actions and will be held to account. We need to teach this from Kindergarden through high school. Then in college we can debate if God exists.

If Adam Lanza believed this I don't think he'd have done what he did.
So, your solution is eliminating the First Amendment altogether in lieu of our society having a perfectly reasonable debate about how to interpret the Second Amendment?

This might actually be humorous if history wasn't filled with atrocities committed by those following their supernatural dictator...opps...I mean "loving god".
 
#73
OP title, "How to prevent firearm based murder/s"(?)

Let's cut to the chase, this is obvious to me.

Here's how we do it. Convince everyone that there is a loving God. A Creator God who made each and every one of us for a purpose, a good purpose. There must be "ultimate justice"...we must convince ourselves that we are ultimately responsible for our actions and will be held to account. We need to teach this from Kindergarden through high school. Then in college we can debate if God exists.

If Adam Lanza believed this I don't think he'd have done what he did.
" Persecution is not an original feature of any religion, but it is a strongly marked feature of any relifion perscribed by law" Thomas Paine. One need only look at todays middle east.
 

Lugan

Joe Streamer
#74
...besides the fact that the USA is already the most religious country in the developed world.

We are already #1 in the developed world on belief in god. We're also #1 in gun murders. So be careful when you suggest guns and god are connected issues, because if you insist upon a guns-god connection, the comparative data suggests that in order to reduce gun violence, we should have less god in our lives.

More likely, the gun-god connection doesn't exist. It's more likely a combination of social factors that we've already discussed in these two threads: Too-easy availability of semi-auto guns and big capacity magazines, poor mental health care, too-easy availability of violent media and games, broken families, and a few other issues.
 
#75
Ed has some interesting points but I think the math is off. I believe that's $100 per student but in the school where I taught and still do substitute work, $100 a year is the diffefrence between eating and not for many families. Secondly, unless the buildings are retrofitted with bulletproof windows, every school in the country is vulnerable in a hundred different areas.

The third idea of an armed individual is interesting but a shooter could merely take that individual out first and then proceed. And I would hate to see teachers packing. It's counter to everything we attempt to engender in our students.

Society has to change before this type thing ceases to happen.
 
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