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Occupy Skagit Redux

15K views 165 replies 44 participants last post by  Smalma 
#1 ·
After aquiring new information and reconsidering the impact that this event can have if timed properly, it has been moved up to April 6th. We are fortunate that of the nine commissioners, one of them lives in Skagit County and one in Whatcom County. This event, as Leland perfectly phrased it, a "Wade In" is going to be in their backyard one week before their April meeting. Its a perfect opportunity to let them help take the message to WDFW and others.
 
#113 ·
I think we need to be concentrated on one area to meet up. IF we are scattered all up and down the river in different spots, it will just look like an opening day of fishing on most of our rivers.
 
#125 ·
I wonder if it would be worthwhile, or realistic, to gather signatures from as many anglers as possible(fly or gear) who participate in this event. The "roster" could be presented at the upcoming WDFW Comissioners Meeting meeting in Olympia. That way, even if the hookless fishermen's presence doesn't attract enough attention visually, the people with decision making power could have a list representing how many anglers believe this is important, kind of like the petition process.
 
#130 ·
so C&R seasons are shown to kill (say) 5% of the catch (in the case of the skagit, the entire run), this means that there must be a harvestable surplus to have a season. Therefore 2.5% of the run can legally be harvested by treaty fishermen.

I for one would rather not have more steelhead be killed by in river gill nets, than hook a fish once a year maybe.
 
#131 ·
AK - The Skagit River escapement is 6000 fish - over the years the Co Managers Treaty nets get about 200 to 300 fish - The state uses a very high number of C&R mortality 10% so the say that the Skagit looses 600 fish a year to C&R mortality (they think every fish gets caught so that's why the 600) - We think its about 5%, 300 fish - the Skagit has lived on those numbers for over 20 years, we have seen very good returns and returns like 2009 with only 2125 fish. Its the way it is on this system. I hope we see over 5500 fish come back this season a 1000 more then predicted. If so we fished over the 2125 in 09 and for the most part these fish are those fish brood stock - A large percentage of Skagit fish are on a 4 year cycle.

My hope for 2014 and beyond is we get good marine survival and see better returns - upper 6000's to over 7000. If that happens - we hope to see the state implement a mechanism with NOAA to open the Skagit basin based on abundance. No one wants to fish over 2000 fish and have a chance of hurting this run of fish - but if numbers are over the threshold of 6000 - I see and many agree that a C&R fishery will not hurt the over-all health of the run.

I hope that gives you a better sense of what OS is about
 
#134 ·
AK - The Skagit River escapement is 6000 fish - over the years the Co Managers Treaty nets get about 200 to 300 fish - The state uses a very high number of C&R mortality 10% so the say that the Skagit looses 600 fish a year to C&R mortality (they think every fish gets caught so that's why the 600) - We think its about 5%, 300 fish - the Skagit has lived on those numbers for over 20 years, we have seen very good returns and returns like 2009 with only 2125 fish. Its the way it is on this system. I hope we see over 5500 fish come back this season a 1000 more then predicted. If so we fished over the 2125 in 09 and for the most part these fish are those fish brood stock - A large percentage of Skagit fish are on a 4 year cycle.

My hope for 2014 and beyond is we get good marine survival and see better returns - upper 6000's to over 7000. If that happens - we hope to see the state implement a mechanism with NOAA to open the Skagit basin based on abundance. No one wants to fish over 2000 fish and have a chance of hurting this run of fish - but if numbers are over the threshold of 6000 - I see and many agree that a C&R fishery will not hurt the over-all health of the run.

I hope that gives you a better sense of what OS is about
It's all these estimated numbers, often based on estimated numbers, being thrown about that has me favoring a more conservative approach. This is the same shit that drove me nuts when we were doing work on the Green back in the 80-90's...decisions being made on numbers coming from everywhere. Get it wrong and you don't necessarily get a do-over.
 
#135 ·
FSA - with all the debate you have presented on this and I understand how you think that the state should take a conservative approach to C&R - I get your point.
Here is where we disagree and your point in my opinion has little influence on where my decision go's on this.

The way I understand you is - Anglers not fishing is going to help the runs come back faster and that is the State taking a more conservative approach to management of the Skagit's wild Steelhead. The 5 to 10% mortality is not worth the risk to the run. Please correct me if Im wrong on my understanding of your stance on all this.

Where I come in on this is and let me make sure you understand - if the runs over the next couple of years reach 5500 to 6500 fish - so my realistic goal would be fishing in 2015 or 2016. If they meet those numbers - we should be able to have a C&R fishery.

Where I don't agree with you is we as C&R anglers matter - we don't make an impact on that years runs to make an over-all impact on how the run fairs long term. Now you may call me greedy, selfish and short sighted - but I would show you systems (the Sandy, Clackamas, all WA Columbia tribs and the Thompson) where people fish over much smaller runs of fish (C&R) and do not impact the health of the overall fish population.

You ask for a more conservative approach to this - and I really think you have one, but just don't see it. If you take the 10% mortality the state gives C&R - the state projects that ALL Skagit fish will be hooked and released. That is where the 600 or 10% mortality comes from. Do you really think that anglers on the Skagit will hook and release all 6000 fish returning - so that shrinks that mortality number as well. Along with realistic C&R mortality at around 5% we are only impacting 300 fish. You look at it and maybe, maybe with fish being hooked a few times, we could have 4000 fish being hooked and released - if so 10% is well 400 fish lost and at 5% 200 fish lost. Do you really think in a February, March and April the Skagit sees 4000 hooked and released fish?
 
#136 ·
for all the bitching and moaning on this board about the lack of conservatism in regulations in washington, its pretty nuts that when conservative management is in place everybody bitches.

Seriously.

And yes I imagine every single fish in the system get hooked. I haven't seen data from the skagit, but on "popular" steelhead rivers (we are talking a couple thousand angler days maybe) up here, every fish gets landed pretty much every year. It's a pretty safe assumption that a river as pressured as the skagit every fish will get hooked at least once.
 
#137 ·
Fact: A properly managed commercial salmon fishery maximizes the amount of salmon on earth.
Fact: Due to commercial fishing there are more salmon on Earth and any other time in history.

Now there's a ton wrong with current management schemes, but lets not demonize commercial fishing as a whole. Lets just work to make it better.

And your saying that I am bitching about a C&R season when numbers get above escapement.
I would like to understand how a properly managed commercial salmon fishery maximizes the amount of salmon on earth and then explain to me how a responsible C&R fishery (when numbers reach escapement) is going to make that run drop off the face of the earth.
 
#143 ·
How do you figure? And this assumes every fish in the population is caught once, an extremely unlikely outcome. And the studies that examine steelhead caught multiple times found that those fish survived to spawn just as well as the others.

Let's say the run is 5,000 adults, and every fish is caught once, which isn't likely, and the incidental mortality rate is 10%, resulting in 4,500 spawners. If one examines the Skagit escapement records since 1978, subsequent runs are just as likely to be good with 4,500 spawners as with a larger spawning escapement. Remember, spawner - recruit analysis doesn't even support the present escapement of 6,000 for MSH.

Why form visceral conclusions when you could form rational ones based on logical analysis?

Sg
 
#140 ·
so C&R seasons are shown to kill (say) 5% of the catch (in the case of the skagit, the entire run), this means that there must be a harvestable surplus to have a season. Therefore 2.5% of the run can legally be harvested by treaty fishermen.

I for one would rather not have more steelhead be killed by in river gill nets, than hook a fish once a year maybe.
It is unlikley that any of the tribes will target wild steelhead. They'll use any additional impacts to account for bycatch in other fisheries (spring chinook, hatchery steelhead and sockeye). The Chinook and sockeye fisheries are big money, and jeopardized when steelhead impacts get too high.
 
#141 ·
After seeing the tactics of the scuba diving community where they threatened and harassed a fellow scuba diver over the lawful take of an octopus, it seems to me if people really want to make a difference similar tactics should be used. The threats of violence worked. They are getting a hearing and the fish and game commission is considering several options including banning the take of octopus in the Puget Sound, and the take of any marine animal off the dive beaches in Seattle. Intimidation won. If Occupy Skagit doesn't work, and I dont think it will, maybe a page from the scuba divers book is in order. It sure worked for the scuba divers.
 
#142 ·
Fact: A properly managed commercial salmon fishery maximizes the amount of salmon on earth.
Fact: Due to commercial fishing there are more salmon on Earth and any other time in history.

Now there's a ton wrong with current management schemes, but lets not demonize commercial fishing as a whole. Lets just work to make it better.

And your saying that I am bitching about a C&R season when numbers get above escapement.
I would like to understand how a properly managed commercial salmon fishery maximizes the amount of salmon on earth and then explain to me how a responsible C&R fishery (when numbers reach escapement) is going to make that run drop off the face of the earth.
Salmon have different limiting factors that steelhead. Therefore a well managed commercial fishery for salmon is a good thing for everybody. Well managed commercial fisheries for steelhead do not exist.

Anyway I was under the impression that escapement on the skagit was around 1000 fish the past few years. If its making escapement a C&R season is warranted for sure.
 
#145 ·
Derek is right about the tribes ramping up their Chinook, Sockeye, and hatchery steelhead fisheries with additional impacts but I would bet my truck they will target wild steelhead if the harvest rate was increased. They have been targeting wild steelhead in C&S fisheries since the C&R season was shut down and they are going to take another 50-100 this spring in addition to the surprisingly large number they already took in their hatchery steelhead fishery which was shut down early due to impacts. One reason for these relatively small numbers is that it looks bad for them to be fishing when we aren't. To think that effort wont increase if we are allowed back on the river is kind of silly. If a C&R fishery ever happened, a lot more steelhead would die regardless of the fishery but as others have pointed out, harvest is not a limiting factor in recovery.
 
#146 ·
Derek is right about the tribes ramping up their Chinook, Sockeye, and hatchery steelhead fisheries with additional impacts but I would bet my truck they will target wild steelhead if the harvest rate was increased. They have been targeting wild steelhead in C&S fisheries since the C&R season was shut down and they are going to take another 50-100 this spring in addition to the surprisingly large number they already took in their hatchery steelhead fishery which was shut down early due to impacts. One reason for these relatively small numbers is that it looks bad for them to be fishing when we aren't. To think that effort wont increase if we are allowed back on the river is kind of silly. If a C&R fishery ever happened, a lot more steelhead would die regardless of the fishery but as others have pointed out, harvest is not a limiting factor in recovery.
That happened on the Green as well. What seemed like one positive step forward was offset by one (or more) steps back. This is a possible impact of a C&R fishery that everyone should consider.
 
#155 ·
FSA - we fished and had a tribal harvest over the parents of the fish that are returning this season (a very large percentage of returning skagit fish are 2 fresh water/2 salt) that run was in the mid 2,000's - they forecast 4300 back this season because of you guessed it, good ocean conditions - if we see somewhere in the area of over 5000 fish come back - will you finally believe that a C&R fishery with the co-managers harvest does not effect the long term stability of the run. Its been hard for us to help you understand that point on a C&R fishery - what we want in the OS camp is a C&R fishery when the numbers are OVER the escapement - 6000 fish. Nobody wants or believes its responsible to fish over 2500 fish - that is not what we are looking for - if numbers are consistent over the 6000 mark, we want NOAA and the State to have a basin abundance approach to management of the PS systems and reopen the Skagit C&R fishery in February, March and April. Not the Sky, Stilly, Green or the Puyallup - just the Skagit - because the abundance is good and fishing that system then is responsible and will not hurt the long term stability of the run.
 
#156 ·
Ummmm I must have said something that someone didn't like. Let me guess; he doesn't like the idea of taking resposibilty for one's own actions. Doesn't surprise me. I doubt he would take responsibility for his own words. That is how it works for certain people. Quick to point the finger at others but unwilling to accept their own injustices.

If you don't support Occupy Skagit don't show up. If you want to object to our position on C&R and our wish to have each river basin judged seperately show up at the commisioners meeting. If all you are interested in doing is to put people down because you don't like them or you don't agree with them, then expect to be ignored.
 
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