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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
http://www.oregonlive.com/sports/or...f/2016/08/deschutes_steelhead_give_way_t.html

This is cause for concern. Bass invading the lower Deschutes is not good. Evidently the water temps have risen to a point where smallmouth (and at least one LMB) have felt very comfortable swimming up the river from the Columbia.

Considering smallies have pretty much well taken over the lower John Day, it is a real possibility that they could also move into the Deschutes and setup house keeping.

I'm not sure the bass will effect the redbands, the steelhead and salmon but I do find it ironic there is a bounty for Northern Pike Minnow in the Columbia because they evidently do effect the smolts and yet the NPM are a wild and native species in Washington and Oregon. The warmwater species in the system are not native yet there is no bounty on them!? WTF????

This situation may not end well for the trout, salmon and steelhead in the Deschutes.

Guess we'll find out.
 

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I used to catch huge bass right at the mouth of the river. They were everywhere.
 

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Want to get rid of the bass you have to get rid of the dams bass do poorly in raging cold rivers.

Since they have begun spilling water at Bonneville the smallmouth of the lower Columbia have taken a huge hit.

However if you want cheap hydro power then you want bass.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Oddly enough, only 43% of the power in Oregon comes from the dams. 34% is from COAL. The rest is natural gas, wind, nuclear, solar and this and that.

Washington State, on the other hand, relies on the dams much more with 84% of the energy generated by the dams.

Why Oregon's second largest provider of electricity is from air polluting coal plants is beyond me.
 

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http://www.oregonlive.com/sports/or...f/2016/08/deschutes_steelhead_give_way_t.html

This is cause for concern. Bass invading the lower Deschutes is not good. Evidently the water temps have risen to a point where smallmouth (and at least one LMB) have felt very comfortable swimming up the river from the Columbia.

Considering smallies have pretty much well taken over the lower John Day, it is a real possibility that they could also move into the Deschutes and setup house keeping.

I'm not sure the bass will effect the redbands, the steelhead and salmon but I do find it ironic there is a bounty for Northern Pike Minnow in the Columbia because they evidently do effect the smolts and yet the NPM are a wild and native species in Washington and Oregon. The warmwater species in the system are not native yet there is no bounty on them!? WTF????

This situation may not end well for the trout, salmon and steelhead in the Deschutes.

Guess we'll find out.
Gene: Were the lakes you frequent for LMB once, strictly Trout Lakes?
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
GT... no. The lakes I fish for LMB are primarily farm lakes with no trout and never had any. I fish a reservoir for smallmouth that is planted with trout but holds no naturally reproducing trout... and the bait folks wipe out the planted trout pretty damned fast.

I don't fish for bass at Davis or Crane because both are designated trout lakes, do include naturally reproducing trout and the LMB were illegally introduced.

I fish for bass where they have no significant influence on trout. Trout can't survive or don't survive long in most of the places I fish for bass.
 

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Not to mention jobs, crops, commerce, water reserves . . .
I'd rather have free flowing cold running rivers than jobs, commerce and crops and flood control.

The thing is by choosing agriculture, the jobs and commerce you are referring to you are destroying other opportunities for jobs and commerce. It's not an either or it's a choice among preferences.
You value jobs that require the use of water. Has nothing to do with jobs or no jobs. It's picking some jobs over other jobs.
 

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We all have our druthers and there's nothing wrong with your personal preference, but there are associated significant impacts that are difficult to ignore inherent to realizing that vision. I, too would love to see a pristine North America as it was several hundred years ago - a wild & free land teeming with fish & game, a primitive Montana, ocean shorelines uncluttered with huge ports & bustling metro areas, chemical pollution, etc. - however that is impossible. Unfortunately, as westward expansion, population & technology progressed and America grew, things changed. As much as I love & respect the outdoors and dislike many changes that have occurred over the years, some things can not be so easily reversed.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 · (Edited)
They are not going to remove the dams nor do I expect them to. However, regardless of how effective it is or not, I would like them to remove any bag limits for illegally introduced warmwater species in the Columbia system where trout, steelhead and salmon are present.

If Northern Pike Minnow (a native species) is doing damage to the anadromous fish, I can't help but think the predatory warmwater species are not also causing damage. If the owners of the dams can come up with the money to pay to kill off NPM, then they can certainly do the same for the warmwater fish. ...at least in specific rivers such as the Deschutes.

I greatly enjoy fishing for warmwater species but only when they are not doing damage to the wild and native fish of our region. There are plenty of fisheries dedicated to warmwater fish where they are not doing damage to wild trout, steelhead and salmon. Johnny Bass Seed should not be allowed to spread them across the NW without some attempt to reduce the damage the illegal planting has done or will do.
 

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They are not going to remove the dams nor do I expect them to.
There are no size or possession limits for Bass, Walleye & Catfish on the Columbia in this area, which from a personal preference perspective may be a blessing & certainly stands to decimate a trophy Walleye & Smallmouth fishery.

According to "Smallmouth Bass in the Pacific Northwest: A Threat to Native Species; a Benefit for Anglers" published in August 2011 (study performed by members from NOAA Fisheries, Northwest Fisheries Science Center, Seattle, Washington, USA; Oregon Department of Fish and Wildlife, Corvallis, Oregon, USA; University of Washington, School of Aquatic and Fishery Sciences, Seattle, Washington, USA -

HISTORY AND ECOLOGY OF SMALLMOUTH BASS IN THE PNW

"Humans have been transplanting smallmouth bass outside its native range for over 135 years. In the western United States,smallmouth bass were first introduced to California in 1874
(Lampman, 1946). This was followed by the 1923 introduction by the Oregon master game warden of 425 smallmouth bass into the Willamette River, Oregon (Lampman, 1946; LaVigne
et al., 2008), and the intentional stocking of approximately 5,000 smallmouth bass into the Yakima River, Washington, in 1925. Throughout the PNW, smallmouth bass were stocked for
sport fishing by state fisheries commissions and local citizens who did not anticipate the potential negative implications for native species, particularly salmon. Judge S. H. Greene, described as a fishing authority of the early 1900s, stated in The Oregonian that (the bass would) "prove himself, if given the opportunity, the best friend of our salmon and trout" (Lampman, 1946, p. 103)."

Throughout history, some best intentions & science at the time have not proven to be necessarily so. That being said, I hold the same contempt for "bucket biologists" as you do, Gene, but it appears that Smallmouth were initially introduced to the Willamette & Yakima rivers by those official entities chartered with governing fish & fishing regulation. I didn't peruse the entire study, but here is the link for anyone interested. http://depts.washington.edu/oldenla...oads/2013/03/ReviewsFisheriesScience_2011.pdf

And I will openly admit that I enjoy fishing for Smallmouth; obviously, they are the most accessible & popular sport fish where I live.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
I wasn't sure about the Washington regs in regards to bag limits. If the smallmouth were intentionally introduced by any F&G department, shame on them.

We are at a point where the bass in the Deschutes could be controlled if the power companies put a bounty on them same as they have done for the NPM.

The train has already left the station for the entire Columbia system but at this point, I think preventative measures can be made for the Deschutes.
 

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We all have our druthers and there's nothing wrong with your personal preference, but there are associated significant impacts that are difficult to ignore inherent to realizing that vision. I, too would love to see a pristine North America as it was several hundred years ago - a wild & free land teeming with fish & game, a primitive Montana, ocean shorelines uncluttered with huge ports & bustling metro areas, chemical pollution, etc. - however that is impossible. Unfortunately, as westward expansion, population & technology progressed and America grew, things changed. As much as I love & respect the outdoors and dislike many changes that have occurred over the years, some things can not be so easily reversed.
Jim - thanks for you're common sense response to Rob's, I guess what I'd politely term, wishful thinking post. I too would love to see the Columbia as a wild and scenic river. But, as @GAT notes, we aren't going to remove the dams. These dams are economic life blood for the PNW, not only for wheat, but energy.

If some really smart people come up with something to replace hydro electricity, that's as RELIABLE and affordable, got to say, we still need the dams if much of Portland is to survive high water years. It ain't all about barges and energy.

Back to the wild and scenic river, teeming with unbound, dorsal to dorsal fin wild, native Chinook, coho, pinks, steelhead and pike minnow, we going to use horse and buggy to get to them? Sorry for the sarcasm, meant as a joke.
 

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Want to get rid of the bass you have to get rid of the dams bass do poorly in raging cold rivers.

Since they have begun spilling water at Bonneville the smallmouth of the lower Columbia have taken a huge hit.

However if you want cheap hydro power then you want bass.
They said that in the North Umpqua, BUT someone forgot to give the memo to the Smallies. :p
 

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Oregon is working on the coal issue. My niece was recently hired by PGE to work on a project to replace their dependence on coal with alternative sources. Would have to ask her about the timeline but I'm sure that information is available.
 

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As someone who spends time around big hydro dams, I can foresee a not too distant future when the cost of maintenance and/or replacement of the Columbia and Snake River dams may outweigh the benefits of keeping them around. Particularly if a new reliable and cheep energy source is developed. Dams like Bonneville and Rock Island are pushing 80 years old. Wear and tear on a chunk of concrete tasked with holding back a big river is very real. Aging infrastructure that was originally built up with big federal $$ is a problem all over the country. I won't guess at the costs of replacing a big hydro dam in present day $$$ but it's got to be astronomical. Didn't a new bridge at Rocky Ford recently cost north of $300K? Sticker shock, anyone?
 

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As someone who spends time around big hydro dams, I can foresee a not too distant future when the cost of maintenance and/or replacement of the Columbia and Snake River dams may outweigh the benefits of keeping them around. Particularly if a new reliable and cheep energy source is developed. Dams like Bonneville and Rock Island are pushing 80 years old. Wear and tear on a chunk of concrete tasked with holding back a big river is very real. Aging infrastructure that was originally built up with big federal $$ is a problem all over the country. I won't guess at the costs of replacing a big hydro dam in present day $$$ but it's got to be astronomical. Didn't a new bridge at Rocky Ford recently cost north of $300K? Sticker shock, anyone?
I too have spent a bit of times around a couple main stem Columbia River dams. I'm still waiting for the clean, reliable and renewable green energy that I can afford. Don't get me wrong, @troutpocket, I'm very much in favor of alternate sources. Heck, I wouldn't be opposed to nuke plant going up in Kittitas County, bad joke.

So they get old, alternate energy fits our needs and time for removal.... I eluded to it above: flood control. It seems dams are these nasty things that kill salmon, kill steelhead, impede adult and juvenile migration, warm water, provide sanctuary for invasive species...... dams certainly do affect fish runs. No sh--! I agree. If memory serves, about 1992 the Columbia drainage basin, plus every other drainage basin in these parts, got snow on snow on snow. Then a warming spell, wind and rain all over. I stood on the right bank of Priest Rapids Dam and marveled at 450,000 cfs. The boils downstream of the center section of the spillway gates were far above my head. All the utilities, the Feds and the Canadians were working together to minimize the effects of what could, likely would, have happened to the Tri-Cities and to Portland and many other drainages without flood control by those dastardly dams.

Peace. Going fishing.
 
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