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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
In one of the longer threads, If it’s legal, then?” someone asked what happened to
those barrels that were supposed to be the answer to our stocking program.
You took a plastic pail, or, more ambitiously, a 55 gallon drum, and you filled it
with eyed eggs and then you put it in a river somewhere until the smolt swam out
through small holes drilled in the container. There might have been more to it than
that but you get the idea.
A weatherman never apologizes for yesterday’s forecast (sunny, but, in fact, it
rained like hell). But if his forecast was accurate, he always seems to find time to
mention this fact.
Do any fish managers ever say, “Hey, guys, we are sorry as hell but we screwed up.
That idea we had was just pure bull.” Personally, I’ve never heard that. But for
years we have had one new hot idea after another and look at what happened? Have
we been led down a primrose path? Were fishery people just pawns in a system
that exploits the environment to death and as it was happening we were given a
pack of lies about how this or that idea was the answer and all would change soon?
Each time I read about one of these miracles, I always believed.
But now I just don’t know. How could all of this happened? Secretly, I am hoping
it’s all due to ocean conditions and that in time things will change out in the big
lake and the fish will all come back.
Or am I just dreaming again?:dunno
 

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Great questions Bob. Not to defend the decision making process of state/fed fish mgmt, but I'm guessing they find themselves in a "less than powerfull" position. Timber interests and urban expansion ruin habitat, commercial fishing destroys returning stock, and the meat heads want their fish. As sporties, we feel the impact of river regs, but seems to me most of the circumstances are out of control. The science is pretty clear that stocking hatchery fish doesn't increase return long-term, yet, most sporties in this state won't accept a diminished hatchery plant. WSC etc are a huge step in the right direction, but I don't think it's news to anyone that Washington State is back-ass-wards when it comes to politics. WA ain't exactly famous for progressive solutions. That said, I hope the heated debates going on here represent a changing attitude towards fisheries mgmt and public opinion. We should continue to ask hard questions and fight for our rights as sporties, raise awareness of the value of C&R economics, and never give up. I stand shoulder to shoulder with ya in the battle Bob. We gotta watch each other's back and keep the focus on the long term solution, not divide based on the challenges we are all facing (new vs old, style vs style etc).
 

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obviously that idea of fish rearing barrels was a long time ago as I remeber it was something that was mentioned in the restaurant that I owned at the time often then we had skagit bios and the fledgling members of the skagit fisheries enhancement group in there at our large coffee table for coffeee chit chat and humbly the meanest country breakfast the I could make thats where I heard about it. I thouhgt how great maybe this would solve the bums rush problem on some of the north rivers I fish seems like few hatcherie return fish spread throuhg the sytems prefering to bolt to fortson or the raspberry hole or evev b slough ya ya I said all this before. This year though whats the issue for survival? sure be nice if they could talk huh.[fisheries dud to fresh hen steelhead "what happen to the rest of your crew miss?]The missing part of the dart board yet is the actual return of the nats fair returns of nats obviously will point at some common defect in the hatchery program of this generation, Ocean survival is always a issue but I 'm not going to listen to the state say "this years strong salmon returns where due to improving ocean conditions then turn around and say thr lowest hatcherie steelhead return could be due to poor ocean conditions [ya I know the difference btween apples and oranges] Now obviously is the time to point out the fraility in the hatchery program and move more in the direction of habitat restoration, spawning channels and stream side shade. I spent the day once in ak digging a side channel in a gravel bar for a certain lodge owner so that fish would hold there at higher water,dumbest thing I 've ever done in my life, but obviously I have experiance in digging holes in streambeds for rearing barrels and maybe we could put geneticly correct eyed eggs in there well more coffee less rambling my 2 cents
john
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Maybe others can think of more big answers to it all and they can add to this list. Here's some bunk:
1. Yes, the river is dammed and the fish can’t get up but we are going to build fish ladders sometime soon. Runs will be bigger than ever.
2. Yes, the ladder idea does stink because the fish seem to get up the dams but get lost in the stillwaters coming down; we are going to build huge hatcheries and plant
millions of fish; more than enough for everybody.
3. Well, yes, the hatcheries are all diseased and must be closed ( a good example would be the Coleman hatchery at the foot of Shasta dam in California) but now we are building these new hot spawning channels that the Canadians discovered. Big runs expected
soon and at no cost since the spawning channels are all natural.
4. Don’t know about the channels, but now we are going to build these weirs that will cause the stream to move this way and that way and the smolts will find
protection, etc. Runs will be vastly improved in about 5 years.
5. Yes, well maybe the floods have torn out all the weirs, but now we’ve got this funding to clear all the brush out of the streams in order to let the smolts upriver. Many miles of spawning gravel will be available. Big runs soon.
6. Yes, well maybe we should have left the brush in the streams to provide protection for the smolts but now we felling logs across the streams and creeks and
we’ll be having big runs soon.
7. OK, maybe the runs still stink, but now we’ve got this barrel idea from Oregon and everything is going to change. Hold on to your hats. Plenty of fish for
everybody.
8. Yea, we don’t know what happened to the barrels, but now we are planting trees all along certain creeks. You’ll see big signs about how we are restoring the
habitat and you’ll be pleased. Sharpen your hooks because you’ll need them soon.
9. Yes, it is true that were going to shut down a bunch of water here and there but not enough so as to cause fishermen not to renew their licenses. We need the
money real bad so as to continue all the good work we are doing. Big runs comin’ soon.
10. True, things have gone to hell in a hand basket. But if you’re so damn smart, what do you think we should do?

I don’t just carp all the time. I went out and worked my butt off one day. A bunch of us from the local fly club went to work on this tiny stream over by Quilcene that
was privately owned. Seems the owner said that coho were spawning in there and agreed to let us “help.” We hauled rocks and big logs all day. We dug by hand these
trenches which ran perpendicular to the stream and then dropped our logs in these to form small but jumpable dams. The idea was to create little ponds for the smolts.
Heavy rains, a small amount of flooding and the whole works was thrown out into the Hood Canal. So much for that idea. Don’t expect much from that little creek
anytime soon. No big runs.
I think we need to talk about these things even if it hurts. Nailknot, you’re a hell of fine fellow and a credit to this resource. Good on ya. And, yes, I’ve got your back.
BL
 

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I used to know it all---but now that I'm older I seem to forget it all.

I'm not going to add to the list,but they did that very same thing to a local small river that I know of. They came in and anchored down logs. moved bolders around. I asked them what they were doing and they told me they were inhancing the river for the fish. Well the next year after all of the snow melt and the high water all of their work was washed out. If they didn't cut all the trees down to begin with. You wouldn't need to be like mother nature to try to restore it all.

Jim
 

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I used to know it all---but now that I'm older I seem to forget it all.

I'm trying to be a better person:p . As lately every time I joke I seem to get deleted. Maybe it's their way as saying I post tooooooo muuuuch.OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:dunno

Jim
 

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I dont think its cause you post too much because all my posts are getting deleted also and I dont post nearly as much as you. I think Chris is trying to get rid of us for some reason?? :dunno :bawling

~Patrick ><>
 
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I don't want to be contrary for the sake of it, and I will also preface my statement by saying that the points you guys make are great ones, and this is a topic that is vital for discussion.

Having said that, I will defend the work of fisheries managers in as much as their failed attempts are at least attempts. I mean, fish in a barrel didn't work, (nor have other concepts) but it was an interesting idea, and if it HAD worked, it would have gained great accolades. There are bound to be many failures before there is a success, and I can't condemn these conservation agencies for at least trying something.

Imagine how much hangs in the balance at each of their decisions. Any decision is bound to be limited by comprimise.

I hope that this notion is not unwelcome, I mean no offense by it.

Teeg
 

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I used to know it all---but now that I'm older I seem to forget it all.

I don't think that it is Chris as we had a conversation about deleting posts and maybe it was thought that what was written was in the wrong place at the wrong time.. I could see that what I wrote if it was nasty or dirty it would get deleted but I've been watching what I write so I don't get bleeped out. We also have little stone as a moderator. So maybe he thought it was in bad taste what we wrote.

I know that we should just stick to the facts. But some times it just needs a wise crack to keep things moving. All we are doing is having a little fun. You don't always get to meet whom is on here and this is my way of doing it. Besides email isn't very much fun. It's to personal and I like to be able to just talk to everyone.

Well I'll step down now and hope this don't get deleted.

Jim
 

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For me it goes like this.

Man has always tried to "manage" or "harness" mother nature. As a result we create one problem and try to fix it with another because basically we don't know what we are doing and are in denial about that. Money and greed drives the "managed" program not management, common sense or embracing and living in communion with nature. The question is always! How can we change mother nature to make a buck? From here it spirals out of control because nature is a power greater than ourselves. I might note that this isn't just a fishing issue. We exploit all of the earth and its resources to devastation not moderation.

The answers are with in each and every human being collectively just as the destruction is. No politician or specialist is going to solve the problem. We have to stop looking outside ourselves for the answer. When we stop exploiting, raping and controlling there will be change. Mother Nature will heal the oceans, rivers and ultimately the runs.

Unfortunately, a total loss may result prior to this collective change. :smokin
 

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Hey now tight shorts :professor its the "above 5 threads" not just the above 4 .. no they are not helpful to the topic but hopefully to the crew reading the topic it will lighten the load of mental fatigue that some threads cause us :beathead . Its not every day that I have to use my brain to think :7

Without failure, you do not know how to succeed? Thats my opinion in a barrel. ;)

~Patrick ><>
 

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I used to know it all---but now that I'm older I seem to forget it all.

Maybe I went about this the wrong way but being me I don't seem to know the correct way so I just let go with both barrels. What started out one way ended up another, I didn't mean to step where I wasn't wanted. If you all want me not to make any comments on what is said,I can just go away but I enjoy everyone on this site.

Jim
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
I started this thread not to criticize the fish managers because I have always admired them. As a kid, I always wanted to be one until I read where they were being gunned down in the salt marshes of Suisun Bay in California. Seems the local kids wanted to poach ducks and the game wardens tried to stop them. So then they poached the wardens. Not for me.
But I am a bit cynical these days as one fish dream after another goes down the tubes. And if the managers are not to blame, who is? I mean where does the buck stop? If Johnny can't read, then let's check out his teacher. If the prisoners keep rioting over and over again, I think it's time to talk to the warden. All of them would respond that they are trying.
But is that good enough?
Bob:dunno
 

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I mentioned fish in a barrel cause I actually wanted to know if it ever went anywhere for a time my passion for this sport cause me to look at all the why's and hows that runs declined and look for a place to make a difference and I'll still would like to but I can no longer fathom the complexity of finger pointing and blame shifting that current political and economical factions put forth> My opinion only; 1. I no longer kill any fish excluding put and take trout that my 5 year old caches at lowland lake whatever and only as many as he promises to eat. As for salmon pinks and chums fit my pallate just fine killed enough kings in alaska and I presonally don't think we should fish catch and release for silvers they just burn them self out to much. I just cant let go of cr for spring steel its not just the fish although they are the grsndest of all cratures its the river in april the early sun rise the sudden rain people from all over the west that come to that few week window the campfires the flie swaps hiking into a run and finding some one who taught you something when I was new or taking a newbie out and watching him stand in awe watching the river or a fish that just does cartwheels because he can not because he's hooked this year I hooked fewer steelhead than most but this year I could care less the water saved may soul the hikes helped my heart and the casting gave me something peiceful to concentrate on. So on friday I will fly to las vegas on buisness and no doubtly se all the depocary of this fine world,but come monday I will be knee deep somewhere renewing my soul anyone out there feels like joining me let me know by thursday.
 

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Thanks Bob. Thanks for dropping a few interesting & controversial topics to go along with your writings. We're a bumbling species, yet we have managed to think ourselves out of destruction so far. I bet we think ourselves into a few more years of fishing if we crack down hard, just maybe, but the idea of "west" and all that space is dead in Seattle, SF, LA etc.. Science is good- but the macro trend will take some thinking that we don't yet possess. Maybe Mars has a char fishing season? I've always thought that the space aliens had a planet of beauty that we could never imagine, the only reason they haven't landed is because they think Earth is a dump! It's our dump though and I love it.
 
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