Hatchery fish try to breed with the wild fish, hence inferior fish. Besides they are put out there for you to eat insted of the wild fish.

This is just the tip of the iceberg. You should get more info as the day wears on.

Jim

 

Jim is exactly right menefee. I worked for the Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife as a biologist for 3 years, and the purpose of the hatchery fish is to take pressure off of the wild fish during the fishing season. Also, the hatchery fish try and spawn with the native fish which may cause reduced fitness in wild fish. If you are further interested just type in google reduced fitness and wild and hatchery fish or steelhead and you should get a ton of articles about it. Here is a decent website that goes over some of the basic principles http://www.coastrange.org/salmon&survivalpg3.html . Some of the other reasons include competition for spawning grounds, competition between spawning males, and competition for habitat. The hatchery fish are encouraged to be killed in many systems such as the Methow. Hopefully that helps!

James:beer2:

 

Helps a lot, and thanks. Didn't know any of that info.

 

i always thought that hatchery fish were suposed to breed with wild fish so thered be more of the species...

 

I love catching steelhead, hatchery or wild. But once I get into the groove each year, more frequently than not I can tell the difference between a summer run Wild Steelhead and a hatchery fish a few minutes into a fight, if not from the take. Don't get me wrong, hatchery fish are great fun, but wild steelhead simply kick ass. That's why you don't want hatchery fish interbreeding and diluting the gene pool. Bonk and BBQ.

 

In a perfect world, hatchery fish would yield tons of fun for anglers, but wouldn't invade the wild stock genetically. It isn't a perfect world, though, is it?

I have too little experience to comment with wisdom, but I have read time and time again that wild fish put up a better fight. I enjoy eating fish, but even if I was in an area where wild fish abound, I'd turn 'em loose. But I'd always bonk the hatchery fish.

 

Better yet, we used to use the term native fish. Those guys are pretty much gone. I like to use the term non-fin clipped. The reason is truthfully I have no idea what the heck I am catching or where it's ancestors came from. Don't think all native or wild fish are rip-roaring run and gun fighters. If a guy tells you he knows right away if it is a wild fish or a hatchery fish, I have to call BS on that one. The exception to me are those lovely springers of March and April. (And the steroid steelies of February) Especially my favorites, those short tempered Sauk Shredders. God I love those bastards! Every one of those Sauk fish make me feel hope for a past I will never experience. Those fish by the way are all we have left of the wild fish who used to enter the rivers 12 months of the year. Sure there's a river here or there with a good run summer or winter "wild" fish, but there aren't many in our state. If you take the time to dig up planting records or talk to enough old-timers who did plantings you realize that the damage has already been done. You will find plants in rivers you would have sworn were native or wild if you go back far enough. We have "wild" stocks in rivers that had little or no runs and hatchery runs in rivers that had great native runs. Hello Cowlitz! Talk about genocide. These cement pool rats have been interbreeding with the dwindling native stocks for over 100 years. For all of you newbies this isn't an issue that came about in the last 20 years. Try 110. And let's be honest: do you think our noble volunteers clip each and every one of the millions of juvenilles? Yeah, right. This isn't doomsaying just reality. Hatchery fish can't breed they used to say. The sidechannels in a bunch of summer run rivers say different. How about the geniuses who support Atlantic Salmon Pens. When they get loose they can't breed either right. Talk to the hardchargers who really know the Green about that one. I live for and love steelhead like most of us. I do not however get all warm and fuzzy and reach for the single malt when I land a fish with an adipose. We don't know anything about these fish. Our fish loving Evergreen state has made sure of that.

 

PS If you are new to the state, learn how to cedar plank and smoke your hatchery fish. That's a whole learning process in itself. It's fun to treat your family with something you caught. I have an obscure theory completely unfounded by fact or reason that the state plants hatchery fish like the military spends. If you don't spend all of your money as an Army or Marines you get less the next year. I'm sure big Curt (ol' Salmo) will dress me down on that one. I'm ready big fella. He keeps alot of us in check with our conspiracy theories, (myself included) If you spend it all you get more. Bonk those babies you-- paid for them. That is your state palacating you for the millions of fish we will never get back. Get a vacuum sealer and hand out smoked fish for Christmas. And lastly don't be the clown that tries to lecture me or anyone else from our ranks on keeping a hatchery steelhead like a couple dozen of you have tried to do to me over the years all over Washington. You sound like a flyfisherman who hasn't done this very long. Think about what they do with that fish when it gets back to the hatchey. They kill it and breed it or they re-release it for what reason? (That's right everbody can say it together," To take it home and eat." If you want to release hatchery fish good on ya. That's fine also. See ya on the Thompson this year boys. Coach

 

Menefee -
The questions surrounding hatchery steelhead here in Washington like much in the anadromous fish world are pretty complex with no black and white answers. You are asking a pretty interesting question and as you have all ready seen there is quite a range of opinions.

First there is a range of hatchery programs running from a "rescue program" where hatchery fish are being raised to boost a severely depressed population to programs whose goal is to provide fish to harvest. Clearly the fish from a "rescue" type progrm should/must be released while those to provided harvest opportunities are the center of your question. Bottom line steelhead taste good and most folks enjoy one on the BBQ, smoked, etc. Harvesting fish has long been a important aspect of the fishing experience and IMHO some sort of harvest opportunities rounds out fishing for most folks.

The other side of the coin of what to do with those fihs planted to supplement fishing is that it is pretty clear that fishing success is at least to some degree related to the abundance of fish. To that end those that particularly enjoy catching steelhead (the catching over rides the desire to eat one) would like to see as many as possible released to maximize the number available for another day. That approach makes particularly sense with summer fish which ar potentially available for many months rather than a few weeks with winter fish. Bottom line while many folks attempt to advance their own adgenda(s) based on quasi biology the question of kill/not kill hatchery comes down to a personal choice based on one's personal desires/needs.

Several have touched on the relative fighting abiltiy of hatchery and wild fish. In my limited experience over more than 4 decades of catching steelhead the fighting ability of a particular fish is most often driven by the condition of the fish. Here in the North Puget Sound area a hatchery steelhead returning in late spring/early summer is a great fighting fish while the same fish caught this time of year is likely to provide a more disappointing fight. I agree with Coach that the wild winters of the Sauk are a wonderful fish however a spawned out kelt in June is nowhere near a black/white fish of early March. If I were to rank the top ten fighitng steelhead that I have ever caught the majority would be one of those early hatchery summer steelhead - on par with the very best of the Sauk fish I have caught.

regarding the questions of hatchry/wild/native fish and the degree to which hatchery and wild fish interact on the spawning grounds. The answers reality depends to the specific situation. The specifics included the type and history of hatchery program, the life history details of particular natural stock, the severity of the natural selection pressure exerted on a given stock, etc. I will not get into those details here unless there are specific questions.

Tight lines
Curt

 

Curt,
Thanks for the informational reply that indeed is worth reading and shows an abundance of knowledge and educated opinions that are very much worth digesting.

Much Appreciated.Thanks.

 

I learned a lot fromt this post. Thanks a lot for posting the questions and for the good replies.

 

Everyone here is pretty much correct. There really are no "native" fish left save a very few on only a couple rivers (especially Columbia tribs). On the coast, I am not so sure, many fish that come in to the Hoh and Sol Duc and others may very well be native. 60years ago, when DNA was just being discovered, tons of hatchery fish were released, and basically left to do whatever they wanted in terms of spawning. In the rivers they returned to, hatchery fish interbred with wild fish, hatchery fish bred with other hatchery fish, and their offspring would all come out as wild looking fish. So if the offspring came back and spawned again, that is two generations seperated, and they basically now would be considered "wild".
The so called "rescue programs" are designed to aid fish considered "wild" in spawning, based on escapement numbers and the previous years redd count, and if the run is considered "wild". This is done by collecting "wild" fish on their way up to spawn, and bringing them to a hatchery where they are artificially spawned. Ideally the fish are raised to fry size "60-75mm", and then put in acclimation ponds on the rivers they were taken from. These fish, while bred in a hatchery have no marks on them (i.e. no elastomers, no fin clips, and because they were only in cement for a month or two they will have no fin erosion). These fish are then released from the acclimation ponds when they reach a certain size, generally 110mm. There is absolutely no way for you to tell that they were ever in a hatchery pond, or who their parents were. Furthermore, the biologists who collect the wild brood stock don't know who the brood stocks parents were, just that they have no hatchery marks on them. The gene pool is so convoluted right now that there really is no way to tell if a fish is "native" or "wild". On the bright side, WDFW is active in taking genetic samples from adults and thier offspring to try and get an overall idea of how many fish are "wild".
Supplementation programs, while many think are ther only for people to catch, have many other purposes. When you catch an elastomer marked fish for example, not only does the color of the tag mean something, but also which eye it is behind. For example, a right eye pink elastomer could be a "wild" male crossed with a "wild" female, whereas a left eye pink elastomer could be a "wild" male crossed with a hatchery female. When the fish return and are collected at a damn or weir, or caught (this is why it is important to send in your catch record cards), biologists can get an idea of the relative fitness as it is related to who bred with who. This is also being done way more in depth with spring chinook runs in the Wenatchee basin.
Anyways, in terms of fight, I have caught hatchery fish that fought like wild fish and vice versa. The fitness in general is not a measure of fight, but how likely they are to come back and produce more offspring, and how well they are able to compete for resources. Another way of putting it is that fitness is a measure of reproductive success, not how well a fish fights when hooked. At the end of the day it is up to the individual whether or not they want to release a hatchery fish or eat it. They are there for you to keep, and they are also encouraged to be kept. They taste just the same as wild fish too. If you aren't going to eat it though, or don't have anyone to give it too, put the biomass back in the river, somebody (another fish, another person, etc.) will eventually eat it, or they'll spawn because there hormones are telling them to. We are trying to fix what our previous generation did now, and are doing the best we can. We shouldn't complain about it because there is nothing we can do to change the past. It is all about the future now, and the biologists are working hard to figure out what we did in the past, learn from the mistakes, and do it better the next time around.

Tight lines

James :beer2:

 

Rmenefee,

I'm glad you find the hatchery steelhead beautiful. I agree that some of them sure are. But, . . . have you seen any, or many, wild steelhead? Seriously, almost every one of them is a fine looking fish. There are probably many reasons for it, from relatively small and isolated brood sources, but it amazes me that a preponderance of the cookie cutter Chambers Creek winter steelhead and far too many of the Skamania summer runs, particuarly on the Cowlitz, all have a strong tendency to look like that girl in my high school class that no one would every ask out. So if those hatchery steelhead look beautiful to you, well, I'm glad. If they knew, and their pea brains could comprehend, they would probably appreciate your appreciation of them.

This is not to suggest that I think all hatchery steelhead invariably look bad. The inland summer run stock seems to turn out better looking on average for some reason. But overall, the average hatchery steelhead is closer to an ugly duck when contrasted with nearly any wild winter or summer steelhead from any of the western WA rivers or BC rivers.

Naturally, this is the subject of opinion and not fact, as there are few objective quantifiers of beauty. Nonetheless, it's this steelheader's opinion.

Sincerely,

Salmo g.

 

I like to bonk them purely because I like to eat fish. Hard to beat the flavor of freshly cooked or smoked steelhead. I C & R nates and C & BBQ brats.
Brian

 

Good stuff!

I would agree with those who have said there are a lot of factors affecting fighting ability. From my experience clipped vs nate's is not a big factor. One of the greatest, most acrobatic fish I have ever caught was a little 6lb hatchery fish caught in Sept.

I would think the water temp, dissolved oxygen, and freshness of the fish would be the biggest factors. Also, I would expect where the fish spawn, (ie 3 miles from the salt, or 500 miles from the salt) would affect the fighting ability.

Regarding the purity of the gene pool. How many generations does it take for a run to develop native characteristics? I would think after a few generations with no new hatchery fish introduced, the naturally spawning hatchery fish would be a pretty hardy stock of fish.

Andrew

 

"Regarding the purity of the gene pool. How many generations does it take for a run to develop native characteristics? I would think after a few generations with no new hatchery fish introduced, the naturally spawning hatchery fish would be a pretty hardy stock of fish."

It depends how many generations of domestication selection occurred, and whether the hatchery stock was basin native or not. Ususually though what you said is NOT the case. Remember it took thousands of years for these fish to develop their specialized adaptations.

 

To add a little to Curt, some of the toughest and stongest fighting steelhead (in Washington) I have been lucky enough to land have been the 3 salt hatchery fish that come back to the Sky in early June. They are big (14+), chrome bright and pissed off. If you fellas aren't out there on the first day of summer steeleheading (is it June 2nd nowadays?) you're missing a shot at a great memory. The river can be tough but these beauties are players. Tight lines boys. Coach

 

I love catching steelhead, hatchery or wild. But once I get into the groove each year, more frequently than not I can tell the difference between a summer run Wild Steelhead and a hatchery fish a few minutes into a fight, if not from the take. Don't get me wrong, hatchery fish are great fun, but wild steelhead simply kick ass. That's why you don't want hatchery fish interbreeding and diluting the gene pool. Bonk and BBQ.

iagree

I'm using a fish basket when I grill fish lately a LOT.............keeps the nice flakes inside so they dont' fall down in my bbq and mess up my burners :rofl:

bbq'd steelie or salmon with a painfully cold Asahi draft.............aaaahhhhh :beer1: