[Guest]

IveofIone
Last night I posted a 10 year review of the life of my old Ford Explorer. I prefaced the remarks with 'Not Fishing Related' although it has been with me on fishing trips to BC, Montana, Idaho, Oregon and Washington for all of it's life. I didn't think there was anything offensive, controversial or inflamatory in there and had several polite responses to the article which I didn't get a chance to respond to. The post was deleted and I wonder why? Are the Thought Police somehow going to take the narrow view of what is fishing related? Do we have so many moderators now that the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing? An explanation would certainly be appreciated. Ive

 

[BOBLAWLESS]

You write well Ive and if you took the time to write up something and it was deleated, then I think an explanation is due.
Bob:thumb

 

[jackchinook]

Not to join the bandwagon or anything (I actually have an aversion to Ford Explorers!) but the subject clearly indicated what the post was about. If you don't want to read it, don't click it! I actually found it to be an interesting post and read the entirety of it. I recall a year or two ago when someone posted something about 'what's your fishin' rig? (in the vehicle sense)' Everyone posted and it was interesting to see what people drive. It was followed by a few "oh, I saw you there last night...I'll come and say hi next time"...that can't be a bad thing.

just my thoughts...

 

[Guest]

Some pretty highly regarded fly fishing authors have devoted pages in their books to as much as a chapter about "the fishing rig"... If Ive were referring to his chick-cruising hot-rod chopper, that would be one thing, but "the fishing rig"... I think fishing rigs are as much a part of the process as the maps we pour over before we set out in search of fish - yes, in the fishing rig. I must confess to a pang of shock, here.

 

[Bob Triggs]

As a matter of course I contact a writer at the time of editing a post, unless it is really obviously off the fly fishing track. I did forgot to drop "Ive" a personal note and since then I have done so.

The post was not "offensive, controversial or inflammatory"- it just had nothing to do with fly fishing. Sometimes it is easy to find the boundary and often it is not.

 

[Chris Scoones]

I'll take the hit Ive. I asked LS & ****** to keep the off topic threads and personal attacks to a minimum.

If it seams odd to some that we've removed posts, given the forum is usually sticking to topic pretty well, it may just be that some good moderating did it's job. Some may disagree and have said as much offline, but if the result is better for everyone with regards to finding information on FF'ing rather then having to sift through the banter, I'm not easily swayed.

As the board grows, these types of topics aren't as obtrusive as they have been so we'll back off unless it's blatant. If, though, the forum reverts to a BS fest for those who can't seam to figure out how to use email or the forum's PM system we'll again be stepping in to at least post a reminder.

Is good?

Chris

 

[Steelheader69]

Thanks Chris

I did appreciate your email. It takes quite the man to take a hit like that. I should send you links on proper etiquette of a mod (if I can find them). Been a mod along time on a few different boards. Just takes time and fine tuning what you want your mods to do. You should set up a "rules list" they are to go from. There should always be room to move. Just shutting something down because it's in a grey area will lead to some ticked off people. But, the thing is. You MUST be fair. If you do it to one post, you must do it for all. The heavy weight to bear being a mod. I currently mod two boards, and that's enough. Luckily for me, it's alot easier then my first stint back in 95' which SUCKED!! But Ive's post was funny, and related to his fishing rig. That was a very gray area. Now, the clams post should be deleted immediately under those circumstances. Clams have nothing to do with flyfishing. Unless they want to go as far as saying the dug some up and ate them while they were flyfishing.

So, takes time. It took me a good year to get a hang of it (and HOURS worth of email to sort through). If you want to set the ground rules firm, and stick by them, that's great. But if you don't want a big fallout, you best keep everything up and up. I know it's difficult, but saw two of our boards crash and die (and made mine grow) because the chatties (chat hosts/mods) where going overboard nitpicking posts. Only difference, they were going to other Prodigy boards, you lose here, they go to other sites. Possibly won't, but easily can. This is too good of a board to go downhill. Every board needs moderation, but the key is to be able to be neutral when you do it. You can't judge a post by your evaluation of content, but how the post sits within board guidelines. A mod is a rule enforcer, not a rule maker. Not their job to figure out what's right or wrong. If there's a question on something, you go to the site owner FIRST for final call. You NEVER make final judgements based on your tastes.

 

[Steelheader69]

Chris ?

>If it seams odd to some that we've removed posts,
>given the forum is usually sticking to topic pretty
>well, it may just be that some good moderating did it's
>job. Some may disagree and have said as much offline,
>but if the result is better for everyone with regards
>to finding information on FF'ing rather then having to
>sift through the banter, I'm not easily swayed.

I've noticed that while I lurked, then became a member you pretty much had a pretty decent board. But if this is truly your belief above, and I'm one who you are refering to, then I may go with my plans. Not every post is FF info related. They refer to FF, but have alot of bantering going on. Shows friendship on a site. Without, you have a purely textbook site. I already bailed on a few of those. Do not want to be apart of another. I enjoy this site because of a comradary that grows. Banter is part of that. I know it's your job to cover your mods, but not if mods do screw up. A set of rules must be put in effect for the mods to follow. My gripe was an opinion on mods part, not actually reading and seeing what post could be construed as. I won't go into detail, but it's part of a mods job to cover RULES OF BOARD ONLY! Not to interpret as he/she desires. I've voiced my opinions through email. This is all I'll do here. Thanks, but if that's truly your thoughts, then please shut down my account, for this will be my last post if it is. Moderation of this caliber in long run will more alienate then anything else. You will get a good group of people, but chances are some of the more knowledgeable will leave for more open ground. I know one of the largest fishing sites has TONS of post, but virtually NO knowledge. Most of that knowledge ran to two of the other big sites because they went to a strict policy (a christian/family value). I come to these sites to talk fishing and to banter. So, if this is the last. Tight lines and Thank you. If you plan to do some reform, I'll gladly help. 8 years of mod duties on several boards (including two now) and one board with over 10,000 members has given me insite on what to do/not do on a site like this. I'd love to help, or even guide if needed. Just don't ask me to be a mod as well. LOL. I have two nice duties now, don't want to have to actually read EVERY post. LOL. I'm on two big boards that have several sub boards (most have 15-20, where you have 3). Easier to service since posts are spread throughout. LOL Don't miss the days of Prodigy.com where we had over 3000 new posts a day. That SUCKED. Plus having to regulate chat as well. NO THANKS doing a job with NO THANKS! Thanks
:beathead :bawling

 

[Fly For Fun]

Chris ?

Steelheader, i hope your not leaving us or burning any bridges here. I think what happened here is a great example of the good nature of this site. Chris' post above was well thought out and i think brought good points to the table. rofessor

Forum members, myself included, stepped up and let the moderators know how they felt...thus bringing us here. What Chris did is great...if he or this site were not so top notch this thread would not have been unlocked and any further discussion on this topic would have ceased, which would have been the case in thousands of other sub par forums. :-(

You are correct, Steelheader, when speaking of the banter and comraderie that bring the members of this forum closer and more willing to share their wealth of knowledge. I'm sure that Chris, Stone, and ****** realize this as they let much slide, yet continue to allow for efficient browsing and searching concerning fly fishing. :7

What this site is experiencing could simply come down to growing pains. Ive, Steelheader, myself and others, i believe, have spoken up and helped the progression and advancement of this gem of a site. Thanks again to ALL the moderators and posters. WFF!!!:thumb

PS - Steelheader, it seems they you have much to say on the topic of pontoon boats (correct me if i'm wrong). As i am in the market for one - growing out of the float tube - i have many questions regarding a quality rig. Will collect my thoughts and questions for you and others in the future.

Fly For Fun

"Trout Don't Live in Ugly Places" - Alex Higala :beer2

 

[Mike Etgen]

RiverFishing

I was surprised and pleased to come in this morning and find this thread unlocked. Last night I read what was then available (through LS reply) and would have felt moved to add my two coins' worth if possible. It didn't even occur to me to email anyone individually.:dunno
Anyhow, I never read the original ive post that led to all of this, since (no offense, ive) I figured it was a "man and his truck" story of some kind or another and I'm usually trolling (sounds better than "lurking") for flyfishing information I can use. There are times, however, when I can appreciate the less topical posts - such as the recent clever birth announcement in another forum thread. I didn't respond, but still thought it was pretty cool that the member came in here and shared his news, even if it didn't make any of us better flyfishermen.
Had I been able to get in last night, I would have simply said that although I respect the intent, I think you (collectively) may have missed the mark this time - and I have been on record here as supporting the goal of keeping this a fly-fishing oriented site.
I have to say I admire what I read here as a willingness to acknowledge that the moderators may have over-reached this time. I don't have any moderatoring experience to refer back to, but in any area, it's hard to admit a mistake, especially a well-intentioned one.
We're all learning here, and I personally hope that anyone else who felt strongly - or even vaguely - that this was a mistake will now practice forgiveness and forbearance and keep contributing.
I umpire a fair amount of baseball, and I'm struck by the similarity - I can make 200-300 split-second decisions and get 99% correct, but I'll only hear about the one percent I missed. At least I get paid for it!
So you missed one...and allowed us to let you know, and let us know you're listening. Keep up the good work.

Mike:thumb

 

[Old Man]

Chris ?

I used to know it all---but now I forgot it all.

God,don't leave I enjoy your posts even if they are a little long. If you leave I'll probably never get my steelhead flies. I would like to say a few words on this subject,but I don't know how it will look. Yes the thread about Clams should not be here but I see that it is still here and I think that the thread that Ive wrote should be reinstated. I hate to see these two good people(Ive & steelheader69) leave this site because of some not understanding their roll that they have to play. It is good that we waver off the subject once in a while. But I think that LS crossed the line on this one.

How lond did the music one last or what you drove to go fly fishing. Both of these had nothing to do to better yor skills as a fly fisher, but they stayed.

I'm starting to go off the deep end so I better quit. This is enough soap box for me.

Jim

 

[Steve Buckner]

First of all, I would like to thank Chris, Little Stone, and ****** for the time and energy that they continue to put into this site. I enjoy the fact that the fly fishing forum is truly about fishing and that the personal attacks are removed immediately. These guys really do deserve some much need thanks and respect from us who utilize the info here.

One idea that came up awhile ago was to create another forum, where topics other than fly fishing could be discussed. I'm not sure if that is an option, but it would seem like a good one if it's possible. There may be other issues that would prohibit it, Chris would have to build it, there may be bandwidth issues, storage issues etc.. Chris, have you given any more consideration to this?

 

[Shamoo]

schmokin'reel!!!

HEY YALL I THINK MY PASS LAKE THREAD GOT REMOVED.... BUT - IM OVER IT!!:+ I DONT THINK DECISIONS ARE MADE ON PERSONAL PREFERENCE, OR FAVORITISM OR ANYTHING OTHER THAN SOME FOLKS WHO TAKE THERE TIME TO HELP CHRIS OUT AND HONESTLY TRY AND MAKE THIS A WORTHY SITE. I THINK THAT SOME OF THE WAYS WE ADDRESS THESE LIL' TIFFY'S IS LIKE WE GOT OUR FEELINGS HURT OR SOMETHING AND WE NEED TO DEAL WITH IT IN AN EMAIL KINDA WAY INSTEAD OF A POST WAY BECAUSE THE COMMUNICATION WOULD BE MORE OPEN FOR SOLVING THINGS THEN ATTACKING THE MOD.'S MY ONLY 2CENTS-BHUDDA:smokin i could get nailed for this:dunno

 

[wetline dave]

Ive,
You started a little controversy and how it is being handled is good. The moderators have listened. Without controversy things stagnate and die. When handled in an open manner like this one appears, then only a better forum can result. How else do opinions get out and evaluated? Hang in there Steelheader, you are to good to loose on this forum.

The origional intent of any given forum may change, but it should change according to how the people on the forum respond and what they desire. Isn't this kind of what is happening here.

Sometimes things get posted that we can all learn or remind ouselves about and in a way that does pertain to the overall theme encompassed here, I'm referring to the clam dig and not securing a boat. Applies to fly fishing too.

Isn't it great we all think differently, not a bunch of mental clones.

Dave :beer2

 

[Steelheader69]

Thanks Guys

I went straight to the source on my problems, I will not mention them here. But being a mod is the same as being a police officer. You don't interpret the laws, you enforce the laws that are given. The judge (chris) gives final call on anything construed as "inappropriate". I've been a mod along time, and judged from that aspect (will not go into details). I didn't say I was "going to leave", but if what transpired is out of line, then I didn't want to be here. I do enjoy this site. If my bridges are burned because of true knowlegeable critiscm from experience, then I guess it's best I torched them myself. I get along with Chris, so can't see where I crossed the line.

But a mods job is to police EVERY thread. A mod is usually delegated an area/group. I enjoyed the clam thread as well, but per guideline regs it should've been deleted ASAP. Title alone should've meant an instint read by a mod. Mod duties are not a light job, you have a job to do that is thankless. I know oh too well how that goes. But a mods job is to log in and go through every post first to check content. Then, read through at leisure. The negative of the job. You have to read through posts that don't concern you. I don't need to thank the mods, they know. I've been there, and am there on two boards now. Trust me, I KNOW the feeling. I don't want to leave, and isn't an idle threat. It's how I feel. I know what it means to be a moderator, and judge from that aspect.

 

[Mike Etgen]

Chris ?

RiverFishing

Jim...

Are you telling God not to leave, even though His posts are a bit long? And did He promise you some steelhead flies?

Just kidding!

Mike

 

[wetline dave]

Thanks Guys

steelheader'

We all need your critisism and insight. Some may not like it but as you say you speak from possition and that is respectable!

Keep up the good work! I would say more but I started off kind of ragged here and promised myself to keelp it toned down, as much as I can anyhow.

Here,s one to you :beer1

 

[worldanglr]

Thanks Guys

In my opinion, the mods were not totally unjustified. I happen to know Chris well and happen to know how much work, time, and energy he puts into this site. He wants the best for it, and I don't blame him.

Over the last few months, there have been many posts that are off topic. This is not entirely unjustified, heck the whole point of Chris making this site was to create a community of fly fishermen, and that's what he's done. Anytime you get a community of people on the Internet who spend a lot of time on a forum, you're going to get banter and off topic posts. I've been a member of some sort of internet community for the past eight years, and it's always that way.

However, in Chris's defense, I often find it a pain to have to wade through all the converstational excess in order to find the good information, and I'm sure other people feel that way, and I'm sure some others don't. In the interest of the majority that use this site, however, I think that this isn't unjustified. There are over 1000 registered users on this site, and if I had to guess, only about 200 of them make any sort of regular posts. This doesn't include all the "lurkers" that check the board for information on a regular basis, and don't post. These people come to the site for information, not for conversation.

I've suggested to Chris in the past that maybe including another forum, called something like "Fly Lounge", would help to keep this banter to a minimum by bringing it off of the main "FLY FISHING FORUM", and I would suggest it again. All of the topics that are not "Fly Fishing" related could be moved to this "Lounge" area. I've seen this work well in a number of other forums and boards that I've been a member of in the past.

In the meantime, despite the posts being deleted, posts being edited, and things getting removed, I see it as a reaction from the mods to people that don't know how to stay on topic. To reiterate what Chris said earlier, learn how to use email or the boards private messaging system for personal communications between people, and make posts that are relevant to fly fishing, and you won't have a problem.

worldanglr
http://www.worldanglr.com/

Calling Fly Fishing a hobby is like calling Brain Surgery a job.
-Paul Schullery

 

[Steelheader69]

No offense worldanglr

But actually you're off mark. Since you're actually probably out of the loop, you are not in the position to judge. I'm in the loop. I don't want to fight, I've spoke my peace. But fly fishing is more then just tossing a fly rod, reel, line, fly into a body of water and hoping to catch a fish. If it is, then you aren't fly fishing. It should be more of an experience then that. It should be your surroundings, it should be the people you are with. It's ALL flyfishing. I too have fished throughout the world, and have had lots of fun BS'n with friends I've fished with throughout Canada, Europe, and the UK. I've had as much fun sitting down on a beat having a drink just BS'n then actually fishing with the Ghillie. Now, I can understand if someone starts a thread "Hey, you see this movie last night about the Olympic swimmer?". Now, that's way off mark. The true stories of what went down are between the mods/chris, and the one's who were edited/deleted. Best to leave it there and not assume/jump in on what happened or assume. Just leads to sides building and an uproar. Why I kept my thoughts mostly in PM's. But after I saw this, I had to add my .02. Just the way I am. Chances are, I may just stick around to be a thorn in their sides, I'll be the new ******.

Plus, it only takes half a second to peel through facts. If you want the beef of a post, how long does it truly take? I know I can go through a post in a matter of seconds skimming through a post. It's typing the response that takes time. Plus, if it's a banter post you don't like, DON'T READ IT!!!!! As long as it's not openly crude, who cares? Most of the banters have fishing relations in it. I know I'm young, and only have about 25 years of steelheading under my belt, but bantering of a HARDER level was expressed in front of myself as a young 7 year old. I saw this from different gentlemen on different rivers. Just say it this way, I try not to throw stones (if you think this is throwing stones, you ain't seen NUTTIN! ) If I'm truly mad, I'm malicious. But I know I've read some that was edited and deleted, they could've stayed. (By the way, on all the boards I have/am mod on, we have a mod only board, do you guys have one? If so, do you pull posts in there first and decide to delete? We usually do. This way we get it off, and can reapply if deemed ok by the other mods. Also, you can get good critiques that way if you were/weren't making the right call). We normally call it "Mod Cafe" on most of the boards.

 

[worldanglr]

No offense worldanglr

No offense taken, although I don't think I'm off the mark. As they say, opinions are like... everyone has one.

My post was not intended towards Ive's post on which this original topic was started. My post was in regards to the number of other posts that have been deleted, some of which are by people I know. I never got a chance to read Ive's posting, so I can't speak to the relevance of it, but I can speak to the relevance of other posts that have been deleted. Some of them were personal attacks, some were hapless banter, some are better left unsaid, and all in all, I agree with most of it.

While you and I can discuss our opinions, we are neither site owners nor mods, and so can do nothing but express our opinions. You may not have a hard time sorting through the banter to find the information, as you obviously have had years of experience on forums/boards and moderating on them. That's a skill you've learned. Others are not so computer/internet savvy, and can't sift through the information as quick as you. As Chris said, "but if the result is better for everyone with regards to finding information on FF'ing rather then having to sift through the banter, I'm not easily swayed." I agree with him. For a few months, the BS was a bit out of hand. Now it's getting better, reading through current topics over the last few days, and that's partly from good mod'ing and partly from people figuring out how to use email.

I'll agree with you that Banter is part of fly fishing, heck when I'm not fishing, I love nothing more than to be talking about it. Go to any fly shop and it's the same. That's why I suggested having a "Fly Lounge" where people can BS and banter and talk about things that are marginal, while still having a "Fly Fishing Forum" where the good meat of the information is easy to find. :thumb

worldanglr
http://www.worldanglr.com/

Calling Fly Fishing a hobby is like calling Brain Surgery a job.
-Paul Schullery