i guess there is a "prize factor" involved but it is primarliy(to me) associated with the level of difficluty of getting THAT PARTICULAR FISH to take the fly. but this does not mean that all 18" rainbow trout are more prized by me than an 18" whitefish or whatever. i mean, some trout are simply easier to catch than others and can be considered less prized becasue of that. that is why steelhead are so prized: becasue they are often hard to catch. but there are so many factors. for example, there's a difference in "the prize factor" between a 5lb Rocky Ford Trout and an 18" trout from a headwaters. i would personally value that headwaters trout more highly based on the whole of the circumstances. but like i said, not all trout are necessarily more savvy and in most instances it's harder to get that carp to take the fly than that trout so that carp may be more valuable even though you don't get the same "classic fly photo" holding that dooface looking carp even though it's the smartest fish swimming. if i ever catch a carp on the fly, it will be highly prized by me.

i do a fair amount of brush busting in the cascades to waters that i know aren't going to produce many trout, let alone big ones, but those trout are some of the most prized by me. theres' another factor: the status of the waters itself. whether it be the product of your explorations and not from your reading the latest hot spot in F&H News.

as for the perch fishing, i commend people who try something new. it's far less chartered than trout fishing and it took a little pioneering. maybe he's tired of casting to the same old fish that everyone else is. and for me, at least, it's particularly fun to catch fish that i havn't caught before or rarely catch too, even if its low on the "prize factor." and i'd like to thank you for leaving all the perch for the rest of us-ryan

 

Bummer you got called that:hmmm
I have a greater love for some fish that others. I prize that Native Steely over that Brute Trout. I esteem that trout over the 'Big' bass but I fish em' all and love every minute of it.
So I see what your saying and can understand why. I am much the same myself.
I have a 5.5 y/o girl and she is the only one I the call "My Fishing Partner". Every one else gets called "Fishing Buddy" and these are her orders.
Took her out and let her have at it with a San Juan worm and she hooked up 16 six inch baby bass. The "prize" there was watching her handle and release the fish and be so proud of herself for letting them go and grow. She'd say "See you when you get fat!".
Even now she says she would rather catch a steelhead. Someday she will. They are a "prize" fish:thumb

darrin
For what it's worth

 

All good thoughts here. But I couln't agree more with Bright Rivers on this subject. I don't think we should go down the road of racism; I mean fish have no special rights to equal treatment. Yet, strangely, it seems like I am standing on the very turf of the Klansman himself: I do have very strong prejudice when it comes to fish; I do value steelhead over all others. And if you can't be a steelhead, then could you at least be some sort of a salmon?
A gentleman on this site riled me to no end when he suggested that maybe steelhead were sort of over-valued and he questioned why would we be willing to do almost anything to save the wild steelhead even if, in so doing, we were to harm other species.
I hope it never comes to the day when we must trade one species for another. But were it to be, I would hang with the steelhead, the finest fish that swims.
I cringe when I think of people from the South importing their favorites to this area. We have that problem just a few miles from my home. Northern pike have been illegally placed in a salmon spawning area. WDFW poisoned hell out of them but there was a huge outcry from the ignoranti wanting to sue someone, the WDFW, the county, the state, the feds, God. Quieted down now but I think it is germaine to the discussion.
WDFW is committed to mainting the current species and I applaud them for that.
I worry that striped bass will get into the Sound. I love stripers and they are a hell of a fighter, very agressive and they love good flies. But I believe it will be the final nail in the coffin of the salmonids.
Keep them out at all costs!
As for others, the carp boys, or catfishers, or whatever,
let them be and maybe I would even join them a time or two just to feel some pull on the old line. But should such an event conflict with steelhead fishing, well, I just can't imagine what I would do other than what I have always done: I'm a trout sort of guy and salmon are just big trout in my eye, and as for the others, well, second class I'm sorry to say.
Finally, I am a snob, an honest snob, unafraid to admit it even though it is damaging to my press (something I never worry about). I'm snobby about my flyfishing, my gear, my choice of species, the types of rivers I fish.
Hell I'm even a snob about my hat.
Bob, the Leave snobs be snobby please unless they somehow hurt you in a real way. A lot of the anti-snobs we have around here are very snobby about their anti-snobbiness. But I love 'em anyway.
}(

 

i agree, Bob. native fish are that much more special. it messes up the balance and really makes fishing and ecology much more complicated with introduced species. like you said, stripers and pike and carp and etc are all admirable fish but they weren't meant for NW waters. and many of them thrive up here because evolution did not equip our ecosystems to cope with them. that's why i get mad that the WDFW wants to pay people top dollar for native Northern squawfish(which are unique to the Columbia drainage) but promote the prosperity of voracious small and largemouth bass. not to mention walleyes, pike and whatever else has been stupidly planted in there. i mean its a novelty to have some exotic diversity but we are paying dearly in the long run for this mere novelty. the steelhead is a true NW fish. it's like the signature of NW fishing. that's also why i think it has been cheapened by introducing them to the Great Lakes. and Bob, i am curious as to which river you are talking about. aren't you from the west side? -ryan

 

Whoa there...I didn't call you an ass. I offered an opinion that when one uses phrases such as those chosen by you in your posts, he or she comes off sounding like an ass. You may be an ass, but I don't know you and therefore would not call you that or any other name.

Within the larger sport of "fishing", we all have our preferred targets or "prizes". However, I wouldn't walk up to a dude on the pier fishing for bullhead and ask him why in the hell he's fishing for bullhead, or tell him to sell me on the idea of fishing for bullhead. If he does it with passion, and wants to be good at it, I'd let him be. If I really wanted to learn about fishing for bullhead, I'd simply ask him for some advice. That's all.

 

In one of Lefty Kreh's books, he mentions that the most sought after species in the United States is the small mouth bass. If one looks at population demographics, most large populations of people center around these warmer water species.

Out here in the west, we have plenty of trout (salmonid) options and they generally get top billing. In many locals, the water run too cold for the warm water species to survive.

All that said, most people will agree that a small mouth bass will out fight an equally sized trout. There is a growing movement of people looking for other fishing options, realizing that while trout are great, so are many other species.

I've spent my life catching salmonids and have decided to take some time this season exploring some of the other species that can be pursued on a fly rod around the PNW. It's not that I'm bored or dissappointed with salmonids, I'd just like to increase my knowledge of other fish species.

Steve Buckner
www.northwestflyfisherman.com

 

New River Mike

I'm glad bugnuts offered some clarification. I read the "offending" post also and was sure I'd read "sounding like an ass" as opposed to "you are an ass."

I read it too, and the word that came to me was "condescending." Neverthelesss, it was just one person's opinion.

I respect the right of anyone to follow this sport in any way they choose. If I have a prejudice, it's the belief that most flyfishermen are sportsman first, not food fishermen, and that MAY incline them towards a more conservation-minded value system. Maybe.

Having lived as far east as Rhode Island and made it as far west as the OP, I just think we need to know we have fishing opportunities here that are unparalleled in America. But I have a hard time understanding why there's the inclination (or even the luxury) of feeling smug about it. There's room for everyone and every persuasion, and when mistakes are made, hopefully we'll respond in some proactive and coherent way before we end up looking like so much of the rest of the country.

I do appreciate the concerns raised about introducing non-native species to this area. Unfortunately, it's not a behavior confined to hillbillies dumping some of their favorites into the local pond. We Americans have been tinkering with our environment ever since we stepped out of the boat. Some of the most noxious pests (Norway rats, for instance) weren't even invited - they stowed away and then hopped ashore.

It does bother me that some of our members seem willing to use stereotypes about others. Here's Bob's observation:

"I cringe when I think of people from the South importing their favorites to this area. We have that problem just a few miles from my home. Northern pike have been illegally placed in a salmon spawning area."

Northern pike aren't even native to the south. And smallmouth bass were carried across this country from the northeast and eastern Canada as quickly as the railroads were built. But your words make me wonder if you just didn't know any better or if you'll next accuse southerners of importing racism to the Northwest and helping to apply it to tribal relations.

Nope - I think most people come to racism on their own.

By all means, be proud of this sport and this wonderful fishery. By all means, be a steelhead devotee or a trout aficionado or whatever. If you're blessed with the wherewithal to go to Montana or British Columbia or Argentina or Forks to pursue your version of the "prize," have at it.

But, please - don't suggest that those who can find adventure and fulfillment in their local waters are somehow to be pitied. It demeans us all.

:rolleyes

 

It seems like a locale thing to me. Having lived in various parts of the country over the years I have noticed that each region has it's own 'sweetheart' fish. Of course in the Northwest salmonids are the fish legends are made of and rightfully so. But if you go to Minnesota Walleye is the king. Four and five pound smallmouth routinely swim free and unfettered in water shared with walleye while legions of fishermen target walleye and ignore the smallmouth. Go figure-It's gotta be the fillets! What I don't understand is that since walleye are non-native and illegally introduced to the NW why the WDFG protects them now with limits and slot limits, etc. Why not just declare open season on them like squawfish?
In the South largemouth bass are such a big deal that anyone with the land and bucks to swing it builds his own private lake and stocks it with Florida strain bass. East coast guys go crazy for stripers and Atlantic salmon-two species that we don't want to see out here. Southern California(another place I have lived)rivers are mostly dry but usually have a good run of Yamahas, Hondas and assorted ATVs year round.
Closer to home I am guilty of the same snobbery others confess to. With so many trout filled lakes around I fish for trout almost 100% of the time. Yet Montana's largest river-the Clark Fork-runs just 2 miles away. Although it is called the Pend Oreille once it leaves Idaho it is still the Clark Fork with all of the species found therein. Downstream this far it contains not only all of the trouts but large and smallmouth as well in addition to huge crappie, bluegill, perch, whitefish, catfish and probably many others. It is prime hexagenia habitat as well with huge hatches around the 4th of July. Yet few people ever fish it including myself. It seems to be that regional thing as fishing up here usually means drowning worms or soaking powerbait on some conveniently located lake. The Indian reservation has a bass stocking program in effect and an occasional bass tournament takes place yet by and large most of the fish in the river die of old age rather than at the hands of an angler.
Sometimes a change of species can be a good tonic for the doldrums. A few years back during a dismal year for steelhead returns in SW Washington I loaded up the the truck and camper and drove all the way back to Minnesota for 2 weeks of panfishing out of a bellyboat. It was really a hoot as you could easily find a lake with no boat access and big crappies or bluegill. I never saw another flyfisherman or float tuber the entire time I was there and fish so big and strong that I used my 7wt just to drag them out of the weeds. Of course I caught the occasional big bass or pike as well and overall it was a great experience.
I can't see anything wrong with targeting just steelhead but to me it seems like it gets a little boring after awhile. I start to feel the need to drift a #18 midge pupa through a tailwater for big rainbows or catch a cutthroat on every other cast on a bushy dry fly or dredge a big brown out of a desert lake on giant leech pattern. No one way is really wrong but a lot of it is about where you get to fish most often. If you live where you can catch steelhead on a regular basis you should consider yourself blessed and just go on doing what you enjoy most. We'll back you up, Ive

 

This is an interesting post. The last 3 years running
I have been so spoiled on Steelies that I have actually
intentionally tried to avoid salmon and other species.
I grew up on Bass and Trout fishing before ever getting
stationed in the Northwest (of course which changed
everything). The only fish that I can ever remember
giving me the same fight as the magority of summer runs
was a small Tarpon many many years ago. I have even
noticed that a summer run on average puts up a much
more spectacular fight than a winter run. When you
literally have to go swimming, climb over countless
logs, and even try to cling to small cliffs and bluffs
chasing a fish - that's the ultimate to me personally.
It's actually going to be tough for me to shift my
mode back to fly fishing for other species to get my
kids involved (thats the selfish/spoiled side). Sometimes
catching 10 to 12 inch Trout/White fish can actually
be more important than landing 30 pound Steelies. It's
not the easiest thing to learn to be selfless when
you've been spoiled rotten. It's a long road but have
actually learned it's more important to support your
fishing partner than it is to catch fish yourself, no
matter what kind of fish - that's not always an easy
thing to do.:thumb

 

Bright Rivers,

Sadly, our region's wealth of anadramous species fishing opportunities seems have made some steelheaders and salmon fishers a bit intolerant of those whose interests lie elsewhere. Witness one post on another thread which questioned my preference for lighter rods and suggested using anything less than a 6WT or 7WT rod to fish for little trout was 'unethical'.

But I guess when your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.

Fortunately, flyfishing is a 'big tent' that's large enough to accommodate many differing styles and preferences. To paraphrase one of our founding fathers: "I may not agree with your choice, but I'll defend your right to fish for (enter species name here) to the death."

 

Don't lose sight of the true "prize"... for me its the places that this passion takes me. Not what ends up on my line. Our prize Cache in the NW is really second to none. I have been out on bass boats giggling like a kid catching Bream, Small Mouths, Stripers etc. I'll take an Alpine Lake or small stream any day.

~B

Trout live in beautiful places.

:thumb

 

I'd rather pursue salmonids than any other fish too. However, as the father of two beautiful redheads, I resent the analogy to a whitefish. Let me tell you, they are steelhead all the way.

 

I suspicion the choice of species we hold in the highest esteem is much a product of our training. I was raised a trout fisher-my father did not fish for crappie, bass, catfish, salmon, steelhead or anything else. My earliest readings were about trout. I mean, didn't Ray Bergman say it all with his book,"Trout". I gained a different perspective when I went fishing with my grandfather where we caught crappie. When we were targeting crappie, we caught the odd largemouth bass-mostly notable because they were measured in pounds not inches, and every once in awhile, trout. I always wondered what a self-respecting trout was doing in that crappie water.
I know I was pleased to catch crappie when targeting crappie. I was pleased to catch trout when targeting trout. I don't remember being more pleased with one than the other.
A couple of years ago while fishing a remote stream in NE Oregon with my brother, we were targeting trout and the largest fish we caught were whitefish. We were disappointed-not in the whitefish-but in not meeting our expectations.
And that is where it begins for me-expectations, or more properly, having expectations and either meeting them or not. When I fish for carp, I want to catch carp. I do not expect carp to act like anything other than a carp. I would be disappointed to see carp act like your normal stupid trout.
I think also there is another factor at work. The element of scarcity and its corollary, "familarity breeds contempt". I suspect that if steelhead were as easy to catch as your average dog chow raised planter trout, few would champion them. Where is the prize factor in knocking over planters? Why do Washington fishers prize brown trout? Do they fight better than rainbows? Are they smarter than carp? Me thinks its because they are scarce in these here parts.
Here is where I think it ends for me. Comparisons or not being able or willing to appreciate the distinctions between species. If all fish were supposed to be the same, then we have multiple redundancies and great inefficiencies in the system. Maybe we should put 'em all in the pot and let Darwin sort them out. A better thought is to allow each their own, appreciate the good and bad in each and don't try to compare one to the other in some misguided effort to prioritize. Folks, there is room for all on the bus and nobody has to sit in the back just because of who they are. Where the system breaks down for me, is failing to see that there is room for all, and on that false assumption, then being willing to sacrifice some in order to save the species you value most.
Bright Rivers-thanks for posing the question-the asking triggers thinking which is always a good thing.

 

Hey Mike,
Sorry about the reference to the South; I am well aware that Northern Pike are from the North. I can read. I was a little too brief in the explantion. The incident in question involved some people from Oklahoma and they caught a few northerns on their way back here from a visit down home and they hauled the pike with them and put them in a lake that has an outlet which is spawning terrirory for some Coho. I was trying to avoid the exact state as a means of sparing Oklahomans from abuse. I guess my use of the larger term was just as bad. Let me amend my remarks to subsitute the words "people from out of state." Oh, that's still offensive... Forget it; I'll just take the heat.
Bob, the Born in New York myself.:thumb

 

great topic. i was driving thru oak creek canyon, sedona, az about ten years ago. knowing nothing, at the time, about the fishing on that creek, i decided to stop and give it a whirl. i had seen signs for a trout hatchery and thought, what the hell. i had a cheap, light weight spin set up that my girlfriend used to fish for largemouths, in the trunk. tied on an eggsucking leech and started flipping and drifting. all of a sudden my line started to move and i realized i had a fish on. the lighting in the canyon wasn't great so i couldn't see what the heck had my fly. since i had seen signs for a hatchery and had heard about browns on that creek, i thought i had a large brown on and i was stoked. jinxing myself, i had the girlfriend grab the camera for the big release. i worked the "brown" up toward the rock that i was standing on and, in the bad light, saw that it was a carp. i nearly blew chunks. i can't explain the disgust that i felt for this animal. i couldn't even touch it to give it a proper release. i did the old reach down with the plyers and tug trick. needless to say the fish was a lot better off before it met me. i'm not proud of the ill treatment mr. carp received but it happened and should be acknowledged. for the record i haven't gotten over the carp thing yet. fishing for bass in the tri-cities area can net you many a carp and i still can barely look at them. nasty bastards.
akflyrod

 

New River Mike

Hey Bob...

No need to apologize. The problem is that you've set a fairly high standard for discourse on this site and now we have to hold you to it. Some folks get all lathered up and spew malarkey all over the place, but after a few posts, you see some consistency and you know they're doing the best they can.

Yourself, you're usually a bit humorous, ironic, reasoned, and sometimes, even a little insightful.

Keep up the good work, 'cause we're paying attention!

And if I should EVER err, please call me to task. :7

Salmon Candy...

Great post. You nailed it, and you're right to acknowledge Bright Rivers for putting it out there, too.

:thumb

 

Oh man I have to agree! they are some of the ugliest fish I have ever seen, I don't want to those googly things either! only thing I can think of worse than that is a Burbot. Man are those things ugly! I guess you can count me in on being a specist. I have fished for Bass and Blue Gill and wouldn't mind going for some perch. But there some fish out that are perfectly safe while I am around. Steve, the Char specist:smokin

 

Well, I think it's a mixture of things. Depends on the person fishing. Some just like having a tug on the line, others have expectations.

Personally, I only like fishing salmon, steelhead, and sturgeon. I've fished and caught plenty of other species over the US and the world (a bennie of being an exchange student in Germany and having an ex who worked for the airlines). All my roads have brought me back to fishing here. Never cared much for the other species, but fishing Atlantics was up there on the list of species I enjoyed alot. But have the insight my grandfather gave me. He grew up in SW Nebraska. Had very few ops for trout, except venturing to Colorado. Some on the Platte. But mostly fished perch. He came out to WA back at turn of the century to see his brother stationed at Camp Murray. Fell in love with the country here, and mostly fell in love with the hunting/fishing. Once he caught his first salmon and steelhead (circa 1910) he had a hard time going back. Finally came out and moved all the boys out here and stayed. He fished until the day he died (was 98). And all the times he went back to Nebraska to visit family, he never once grabbed a rod to go fishing. Just never appealed to him again.

 

Dude that was an awesome story. Man I bet you have heard some Tall Tales ! I bet he had some good stories to tell! I can just imagine sitting by his side listening to him talk of Wrestling Salmon.
Steve

 

If you looked up Perch, Surf perch etc, on the Search function of this site, you might get some info that way too. That is one fun game.

 

Yeah, heard TONS of stories. I was on the FAR end of the spectrum of grandkids. Say it this way, I have uncles that fought in WWII, and my Grandpa was just about old enough to fight in WWI. LOL. My Dad was the last born during WWII (same time some of my older cousins were born). So heard quite the variety of fishing, hunting, and life stories. Cherish them all. Luckily, I got alot of stuff from my Grandpa before and after he passed. He went to work at Boeing during the war to help the war effort and never left. I still have his old badges (were card key type with slots) and have quite a few other things. Also have his old bamboo (split in fact) salmon baitcaster and his bamboo fly rod and an old steel fly rod too. But cherish time we spent together the most. Was a great guy. Eventhough he was about 70 the day I was born. LOL. He was older but always was a dirty old man. Even used to try hitting on my girlfriends. LOL. Miss him alot.

 

>“I wouldn't walk up to a dude on the pier fishing for bullhead and ask him why in the hell he's fishing for bullhead . . .”

Neither would I. Really.

BUT, if someone posted a “Bullhead Fishing” thread on this forum (particularly if it was someone whose skills and experience I admire, like Rockfish), I would certainly post a reply expressing my genuine surprise that these fish are prized by serious fly guys. And believe me, I would be surprised. It would go something like this: “Please forgive me if this comes across as a little condescending, because I don’t mean to be, but . . .” and then I would write something loaded with disclaimers and mea culpa intended to avert offense. In the end, it would be unavoidably destined to come across as condescending, uppity, and elitist. But if I can’t ask these questions in a forum like this, where can I?

Judging from Rockfish’s replies (which, by the way, went a long way toward winning me over toward perch fishing – though I’m not quite there yet) he understood this.

As for your explanation that there is an important distinction between being an ass vs. just sounding like one, I’ll take your word for it.

 

>“our region's wealth of anadramous species fishing opportunities seems have made some steelheaders and salmon fishers a bit intolerant of those whose interests lie elsewhere.”

Fortuna – Please let me clarify: I do not look down on these non-salmonid anglers in any way, for many of them possess more skill than I will ever attain. My respect for any angler is neither enhanced nor diminished by the fish he chases. It is the non-salmonid itself I look down on.

 

>“as the father of two beautiful redheads, I resent the analogy to a whitefish.”

o mykiss: Sorry about the red-headed step-child thing – just a figure of speech. There I go sounding like an ass again.

 

> “jinxing myself, i had the girlfriend grab the camera for the big release . . .”

>“I can't explain the disgust that i felt for this animal.”

Thank you akflyrod. Somehow, your story has me feeling a little vindicated. I too called for my friends to “Get the camera!” I too blamed the innocent animal for my disappointment and embarrassment. I too treated that poor fish with untold scorn.

You don’t know what a broken heart is until you’ve had yours smashed to pieces by a 10lb carp. Maybe you and I should start a support group.