[Tacovedo]

The size difference between OPST Swing hooks and Firehole 714 hooks is pretty drastic. I know other brands are all different, but these seem way off. Is one closer in size to other brands' intruder hooks? If so, are the OPST hooks smaller than "normal" or are the Firehole hooks larger than "normal"?

 

[mickeyrat]

Generally Firehole hooks have a larger gape than other brands. The shank lengths may be close.

 

[Tacovedo]

Generally Firehole hooks have a larger gape than other brands. The shank lengths may be close.

Yeah, that's true of their other hooks. But not so with these swing hooks. Look at the photo. Those shanks are way off.

 

[flyfishsick]

not a fan of Firehole hooks! i find that they wind up snapping on me two brittle. Never had that happen to me with other hooks? granted this is with the smaller jig hooks that i use for euro nymphing. but that's what i fond your mileage may vary.

 

[Mike.Cline]

https://www.flytyer.com/how-to-design-a-new-fishhook/

 

[Cold]

Firehole sizing is just out of whack.

I like their hooks, think they're good quality, nice finish, and hold up well...but I will never order them online unless it's simply to replace old stock, simply because the sizes they list are nonsense numbers.

Now I know sizing is subjective from brand to brand, but at the end of the day, "size" has always been determined as a measure of gape. So now that hook manufacturers are doing weird shit like "wide gap fly hooks", sizing numbers mean less now even than the little they used to.

I tie blobs on a bunch of different hooks, and while the Firehole 637 is top notch, I'm tying on 8s and 10s from everyone else...and the Firehole 12 is bigger than a 6 of most brands. Not even close.

So yeah, sizing is a crap shoot, but Firehole is bad at it, even by current industry standards.

On that note, I'd really, really love to see us get away from "sizes" and do it all with a simple 2-value system in millimeters, gap-shank. So a 6.5-12 would be a 6.5mm gap, 12mm shank, for an approx. #10 3XL nymph/streamer hook equivalent. We could still have the normal "heavy/fine wire", and eye descriptors, but that'd really help out the sizing quagmire we have today.

 

[Mike.Cline]

Firehole sizing is just out of whack.

So yeah, sizing is a crap shoot, but Firehole is bad at it, even by current industry standards.

What "Industry Standard" are you talking about? Doesn't Exist. What compelling reason exists to have standards for hook sizes?

 

[Cold]

What "Industry Standard" are you talking about? Doesn't Exist.

Which was precisely my point, thank you.

What compelling reason exists to have standards for hook sizes?

That's a highly subjective question, of course, and the answer would depend heavily upon how one views the hook manufacturers' disposition toward the collective customer base.

 

[Mike.Cline]

That's a highly subjective question, of course, and the answer would depend heavily upon how one views the hook manufacturers' disposition toward the collective customer base.

Should there be or should there not be an industry standard on hook sizes is indeed NOT as subjective as you might think. Industry standards for products, components of products and product systems are established for essentially one or both of two reasons-safety and compatibility (interoperability). Standards are not established to cater to consumer preferences. In our industry-fishing-I know of two international standards that impact us. 1) Reel seat/foot standardization. Take an American made fly reel to Australia and it will work on an Australian made rod. It is an essential standard for interoperability of fly reels/fly rods regardless of manufacturer. That was always the case. 2) Fly Line Weight Standard - Not near as important as the reel seat/foot standard, but never the less it exists although not always essential for interoperability. You can fish a 6 weight line on a 5 weight rod if you chose.

In the case of fish hooks, what safety or compatibility imperative exists? None. You might need a very large, strong hook to land a Murray Cod, but the Murray Cod doesn't care it is 5/0 or 1/0. Any given fish hook, regardless of manufacturer is either functional for the purpose used or it is not. The manufacturers design and description of the hook is irrelevant. Anglers may prefer a particular manufacturer's hooks for any number of reasons but saying Manufacturer A's #10 hook is the right size and Manufacturer B's #10 hook is the wrong size has no bearing in logic, safety or compatibility imperatives.

 

[Cold]

Should there be or should there not be an industry standard on hook sizes is indeed NOT as subjective as you might think. Industry standards for products, components of products and product systems are established for essentially one or both of two reasons-safety and compatibility (interoperability). Standards are not established to cater to consumer preferences. In our industry-fishing-I know of two international standards that impact us. 1) Reel seat/foot standardization. Take an American made fly reel to Australia and it will work on an Australian made rod. It is an essential standard for interoperability of fly reels/fly rods regardless of manufacturer. That was always the case. 2) Fly Line Weight Standard - Not near as important as the reel seat/foot standard, but never the less it exists although not always essential for interoperability. You can fish a 6 weight line on a 5 weight rod if you chose.

In the case of fish hooks, what safety or compatibility imperative exists? None. You might need a very large, strong hook to land a Murray Cod, but the Murray Cod doesn't care it is 5/0 or 1/0. Any given fish hook, regardless of manufacturer is either functional for the purpose used or it is not. The manufacturers design and description of the hook is irrelevant. Anglers may prefer a particular manufacturer's hooks for any number of reasons but saying Manufacturer A's #10 hook is the right size and Manufacturer B's #10 hook is the wrong size has no bearing in logic, safety or compatibility imperatives.

k

 

[tkww]

I've thought about propositioning a fly fishing/tying retailer about photographing the products they're selling rather than relying on hareline's (or whosever) stock phots for their website. Accurate colors and documenting the whole range of color options, not just 1/5th of them thrown into photo. Waters West actually does a pretty good job of this, unlike most.

But to that end, I'd love to shoot photos of all the hooks out there against some sort of scale--graph paper, a grid of some kind, etc. Ordering euro/jig hooks has been a total crap shoot the last few years, with a complete abandonment of traditional hook standards and forms. Not without reason, but usually completely without documentation. Buy one brand and about they only thing they change is the hook gap, with the shank being almost the same between say a #10 and a #18. Buy another brand and they scale the shank to some degree.

Of course, the problem with the web is that anybody can see/use that info but order from anywhere else, so I'm not sure it's worth it to a shop to do that. But the hook issue you're describing is real and has gotten very bad in last few years with the infusion of so many additional and/or imported brands.

 

[gone johnson]

Reel seat/foot standardization. Take an American made fly reel to Australia and it will work on an Australian made rod. It is an essential standard for interoperability of fly reels/fly rods regardless of manufacturer. That was always the case.

Reel foot standards are a fairly recent development as anyone who collects vintage reels can tell you. I have many vintage reels and sometimes I will pick one up because the foot has been modified to fit modern reel seats. In this way I can snobbishly claim that I wasn't the one who perpetrated the crime of altering the foot.

For anyone interested, here's "the standard"

 

[gone johnson]

View attachment 299482

The size difference between OPST Swing hooks and Firehole 714 hooks is pretty drastic. I know other brands are all different, but these seem way off. Is one closer in size to other brands' intruder hooks? If so, are the OPST hooks smaller than "normal" or are the Firehole hooks larger than "normal"?

I like the shape of the Firehole 718s which have the same feature as the 714s you've pictured. The length of the wire from bend to point is longer than most hooks. I look for that in a hook as much as I can.

 

[Matt Foley]

What "Industry Standard" are you talking about? Doesn't Exist. What compelling reason exists to have standards for hook sizes?

Datus Proper did a great write-up about the confusion brought about by each hook maker adopting their own size-standards. At one time there WAS a fairly common standard- the Redditch Scale. Times change.
As Datus wrote in What The Trout Said - "Makers have only the Alice-in-Wonderland logic that size 14 is anything they say it is."
As has been suggested- somewhere on the innertubes I saw lots of hooks photographed on a grid. Darn good idea. Personally, I'm happy to have all the hook varieties available today and have learned to make allowances for how the various makers interpret sizes.

 

[Owyhee]

Thanks, really useful. Had some trouble the other week. Went with B10S. seems bigger @ size 6 than average too

 

[WW Thurber]

When I was a Quality Engineer and had access to a Rockwell hardness testing machine, I tested Eagle Claw 1197 N & B hooks. I had a number of Steelhead break off while fishing the Niagara River. The hooks all broke at the hook bend. The hooks tested out all over map, some were "soft" and some "hard" to the point of being brittle which indicated that their hardening process was poor.
I do not believe there are any "industry standards". I suspect that most hook makers do not want to share their trade secrets.
I am currently tying balanced leeches using both 60 and 90 degree hooks. using Gamakatsu, Hanak, Umpqua and Firehole for the 60 degree flies and been very satisfied with the quality. My 90 degree leeches I only use hooks from Phil and Brian's shop as they are wickedly sharp.