[Lugan]

A question for you fish biologists: I'm in an argument on another forum about how harmful it is to fight a trout, lay it on dry land, and take a photo before releasing it.

My understanding is that the fight leaves fish exhausted in most cases. Physiologically, this leaves very high levels of lactic acid in fish muscles. Lactic acid needs to be cleared with oxygen via bloodflow. Taking a fish out of water at the end of a strenuous fight deprives that fish of oxygen, leading to a high likelihood of death.

The analogy might be: A human runs a 5k foot race at full speed, expending 100% effort. At the finish line, instead of breathing to flush lactic acid, the person's head is forcefully dunked into a tank of water for a minute or more, preventing him from breathing. This causes extreme stress and leads to cardiac arrest.

Is that about right? Any corrections or additional physiological details? Thanks

 

[trout man]

the fishes fight isn't as tiring on trout as other species trout can also survive out of the water longer than other species.

 

[Tim Lockhart]

Not even close. I look a lot worse after a 5k than those fish ever will. Now go apologize to those on the other forum.

 

[attack]

do you guys actually have proof of the contrary or are you just trying to justify your grip and grins? keeping fish out of the water is harmful...why try to support an argument against what is best for the fish?

 

[Kent Lufkin]

Sounds right to me.

K

 

[Chad Lewis]

If it's not harmful, then why do they go belly-up sometimes? Of course it's harmful the longer they're deprived of oxygen. To think otherwise is stupid. And IMO, trying to figure out just how close to death you can get a fish so you can take a picture is stupid too. If you want the picture bad enough, you'll just have to accept that you might kill it.

 

[Old Man]

It's that laying it on dry land that does it in. The dry land takes it's protective layer off of the fish. It's slime.

 

[Salmo_g]

Lugan,

I don't have the biological details handy, so I've got only a partial answer. The two factors most important in CNR fishing are water temperature and hooking location. Water temperature rules a trout's metabolism. The lactic acid you refer to doesn't become a problem until the water temp gets around 68*F or above. At 70* a conscientious angler would just stop fishing. An exception would probably be brown trout and certain red band rainbow populations that are adapted to higher water temperatures. I don't think a trout will suffer cardiac arrest by being removed from the water, but it will suffocate from oxygen deprivation if it is out of water for too long. How long is too long varies according to water temperature and how stressed the fish is from being hooked and played. A responsible hero shot photo shouldn't take more than 10 seconds.

Laying a trout on the ground exposes a trout to injury from flopping around, depending on what the ground surface is. If the fish's protective slime layer is removed from any area of its body while it is being handled or flops on the ground, that area becomes susceptable to bacterial and fungal infections. Laying a trout on the ground keeps it out of the water longer than is necessary to remove the hook and take a photograph.

Fish hooked in a gill arch or in the eye are the ones most likely to die from CNR fishing. Unfortunately hooking location is mostly a matter of chance unless one fishes something like a pegged bead so that the trout is hooked on the outside of the mouth. That is technically illegal in some areas, but is far safer for the fish if it is to be released.

Sg

 

[Wormonhook]

Roger that, Salmo.

 

[Mike Lee]

Lugan, Salmo has a great amount of info here. The water temperature does cause changes in a fishes metabolism, mainly due to the oxygen content. Ever wonder why on lakes the fish come up early and at dusk? Water temps between mid 40's to low 60's contains the most oxygen allowing the fish to take mass action on it's movements. They don't require as much oxygen as we do, but nonetheless a constant breathing is important. Have you ever caught a fish and held it up out of the water? Watched it open and close it's mouth? that is the fish gasping for air. Like a human drowing the fish is asphixiating. The gills of a fish are not supported by anything solid. the water that flows through the mouth and out the gills creats a sail effect to hold them open to extract "O2 gas". Fish aren't breaking molecules of water to breathe, they extract actual O2 that is dissolved in the water. So when we pull them out you would suspect that they could extract O2 from air as it has 20 times the oxygen that water has. Not the case. out of the water the gills collapse and stick together so they become disfunctional and yes the fish is suffocating. But in my opinion a major part to releasing a fish, or even considering the hero shot, is what the water conditions are when you put it back. When fishing in a lake at 70 degrees on the top layer, fighting the fish for a while on your 00 rod, and then pulling it out for a few minutes to get that hero shot, to put it back in the oxygen deprived water may most likely kill the fish. Yeah watch it swim off, but to impending doom. But I'm no biologist, just someone that talks to them here and there.

 

[Tim Lockhart]

Subject has been beaten to death so many times, and safe to say most of us have been on the same page for quite a while. And sad that a bit of comedy is probably the most appropriate response, or that Salmo has to actually spell it out, but it's a nicer way of saying the grass is green and the sky is blue. Dunno, thought that was all pretty obvious. One thing that doesn't add up though, and it's not directed at anyone, but what's the logic with thinking it's so harmful to get a quick shot of your catch out of water (responsibly and in reasonable conditions) vs. everything that happens once you drive a metal hook through it's face with incredible force? IMO there's a difference between responsible sportsman and blatant animal rights activist. Nothing wrong with either, but if you're strictly the latter you just might be in the wrong sport...just a thought.

Oh, and would all those willing to deny themselves by giving up FF'ing, take up the cross of animal rights and follow a higher calling please come forward.....don't all rush the altar at once. :clown:

 

[Mike Lee]

HAHA! Yes, we've pretty much made dog food and a bottle of glue by now haven't we Ford.....

 

[Lugan]

Subject has been beaten to death so many times, and safe to say most of us have been on the same page for quite a while. And sad that a bit of comedy is probably the most appropriate response, or that Salmo has to actually spell it out, but it's a nicer way of saying the grass is green and the sky is blue. Dunno, thought that was all pretty obvious. One thing that doesn't add up though, and it's not directed at anyone, but what's the logic with thinking it's so harmful to get a quick shot of your catch out of water (responsibly and in reasonable conditions) vs. everything that happens once you drive a metal hook through it's face with incredible force? IMO there's a difference between responsible sportsman and blatant animal rights activist. Nothing wrong with either, but if you're strictly the latter you just might be in the wrong sport...just a thought.

Oh, and would all those willing to deny themselves by giving up FF'ing, take up the cross of animal rights and follow a higher calling please come forward.....don't all rush the altar at once. :clown:

All I asked for was a factual description of the physiology of a landed fish being taken out of water. Thanks for your impassioned opinion though.

 

[Mike Lee]

Lugan, I don't think Ford is taking a shot at you directly. It's true, this subject get's revisted over and over. I'm a super newbie here and In the last few months I think I've read 4 different threads somewhat related to this. It's a concern by no means overlooked, but IMO people don't change. did you get the info you were looking for though? I guess that's what's important here right?

 

[Lugan]

Thanks Mike, I think I did get the information I wanted. Sorry to have disturbed anyone.

 

[Mike Lee]

Thanks Mike, I think I did get the information I wanted. Sorry to have disturbed anyone.

Disturbances? Not. Some people just need more :beer1::beer1::beer1::beer1::beer1::beer1::beer1::beer1:
Others....not so much. It's an open forum of free info, take it for what it is. Look at wikipedia!

 

[dryflylarry]

How many times do you think this rainbow in this photo was caught and released? Look, the mandible or maxillary is missing. The rainbow is 21-22". I agree it depends on the water temperature, and other common sense on taking photos or not.

 

[attack]

if this had been beat to death then there wouldnt be mishandled fish everywhere you look...

 

[Wormonhook]

I'm enjoying this thread and I'm glad it was started. Yes, I know how to use the search function. My thought is that new people join this forum every month and perhaps they have new information or insight they can share on an "old" topic.

 

[Plecoptera]

Yes this topic gets beat to death, but IMO this is one of those issues that needs to be frequently discussed. I'm still amazed at the number of anglers I see that have horrendous fish handling skills.

Bottom line, if your going to release the fish why not handle it in the safest manner possible. There are times when it is not possible to get a good fish pic without endangering it some way. Sometimes we just need to accept this and do whats best for the fish, no matter how badly you want a glory shot.