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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Over population may be at the basis of many of our social problems, including the gradual loss of our fishing. Think about it even though it is foreign to our
culture (indeed, foreign to practically all countries except maybe Switzerland and China). Let’s just take one example.
A newspaper in Vancouver, BC. ran an article which was discovered lately and it is certainly one that horrified me when I thought about it. It was a story about a woman who was complaining about all the salmon near her
home. She couldn’t sleep because of all the noise made by the spawning salmon at night and maybe the city could do something about it. Her address was recorded and proved to be located in what is now downtown Vancouver.
The time was about the turn of the century.
Now, there are no spawners; the entire area has been paved over and all the streams now run through pipes which the salmon will not enter. Gone.
The reason the Canadians built Vancouver is they needed a place to put its expanding population and give them jobs. How many times has this happened
elsewhere? We can immediately think of Seattle, Spokane, Portland, San Francisco and even Los Angeles to name but a few. Yes, at one time even L.A. had anadromous fish.
My father and mother had seven kids (one was a paranatal death) the others are still alive. These children had 24 children of their own. These grandchildren are all alive and have already produced more children than the
previous generation (37) and they are far from finished as yet.
And yes, I am happy to be one of this bunch, but that misses the point. The question really becomes how many times can the population double before all wildlife is gone, all space is taken, and all food supplies are not adequate?
Why did neither of our presidential candidates even address this issue?
boblawless:professor
 

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Bob, a few years back Al Gore wrote a book called "Earth in the Balance" you should read it. This is obviously a problem, but not nearly as bad here as it is in Africa, China and parts of South America. In fact, most "western" nations would have shrinking populations if not for immigration. Your Vancouver example is compelling, but I would guess, if you took Canada land/population, it would have one of the lowest population per square mile of anywhere on god's green earth.

Edit to add: population map http://www.nrcs.usda.gov/technical/worldsoils/mapindx/popden.html

Hey, some guys like ye ol English style fishing. That style emerged from population density and social inequality in Great Britian. Maybe it's all one big circle, and a few landholders will fish and relax all jolly day long, while the rest of us lament the "good ol daze" right here in the PNW. :thumb
 

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Slainte
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"Why did neither of our presidential candidates even address this issue?"

Because there is no profit in it, no special interest group pushing it, and the liberal media doesn't see it that way.

Roper,Truth above all else
 

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"Why did neither of our presidential candidates even address this issue?"

Like I said, Al Gore wrote a BOOK about these issues. How much more do you expect him to "address" the issue? Write you a letter? Bush, on the other hand, is too busy opening Tax Payer Owned land to drilling and chopping by private interests to have time to think about long term impact, much less "too many fisherman."

Roper-- you got is all backwards. The reason you don't hear about it? Because there *is* profit in it, backed by big time lobby money and campaign contributions. There are many special interest groups working on population control, natural resource protection etc.
 

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Roper, just curious how you think "the conservative media" sees this issue? You seem to imply that liberals don't have much interest in the effects of human population and the "footprints" it leaves on the environment. I'm struggling to make sense of that, and also struggling to think of any conservative media outlets or other voices that address environmental issues in a way that reflects even remote concern for the impact of human development on the environment. What is little is left of wilderness, other relatively unspoiled areas, clean water and clean air has zero to do with the conservative movement.

And by the way, Bob, sure Vancouver has screwed things up like every other major urban area, but they squeeze a hell of a lot more population into a smaller footprint than we do here in Seattle. That to me is a more environmental friendly approach to urban planning than we have taken. (Granted, the Canucks are guilty of many other sins against the environment).
 

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The human population is no different than any other species....Over population eventually causes environmental degradation, depletion of resources, starvation, and rampant disease...

We think we are outside of the natural cycle but we are clearly not. Everything is part of nature, even the synthetic, artificial or manmade stuff...

We will learn the hard way...life is suffering.

-Piscean
Calmness is power....
 

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Slainte
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For all you (adjectives deleted) folks that took exception to my post, listen up.

No one in political or corporate power, liberal or conservative is going to get anywhere near a solution to this subject. The answer is spritual (not religious) and that quality is seriously lacking in our global leadership these days.

I hope that is a little clearer and less offensive.

Roper, I'm going fishing while there still are some fish...
 

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LOL...did you do this so you could be the center of attention Roper????

Lets go fishing...and then when we get back you can argue politics again all you want. :p

~Patrick ><>
 
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A concensus is GROWING Pardon the pun

By the year 2050 the US will have 400 million citizens. Half of those will be Hispanic. Those are the numbers from the Government and are probably on the conservative side. Like any overpopulating species, disease, starvation, and predation(war) will take its toll and humans are no exception. I personally find this subject very important and I don't understand why people are afraid to talk about it. I come from a family of six and now have six nieces and nephews with more on the way. I don't have kids and don't plan on having them. When asked why, I say it is because the world is already over populated as it is. I'm only 30 but compare Bend now to what it was like in 1978. Imagine it in ten years. I think families with two or less kids should be comfortable with that choice and if population concerns figured into the decision then all the better. Not to be preachy, but really, wouldn't it be nice if our population just stayed where it is for a while? We are such hypocrites when it comes to the environment. ie: last time I went to Merrill lake, a suburban full of floaters pulled right up to shore leaking motor oil on the beach. Then they remarked about how nice it is that we have all the rules to keep the lake clean. I showed them their oil and they parked up higher, leaving another nice little spill. I hope they keep that gate locked year-round. Dry Falls has a decent system nd I hope it catches on in other places soon.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
A concensus is GROWING Pardon the pun

Very thoughtful of you, Big Ben. I appreciate both your gift to the world (responsible population control) and your words of wisdom. I went through two women in my life and the three of us produced only one child. I am proud of that and also the fact that I have given my daughter everything I have to offer as a father.
I worry that steelhead will disappear in my lifetime, and I will feel bad (maybe even somewhat guilty) that my generation failed to deal with this issue of overpopulation. How could we be so ignorant as to ignore what we all see. On the Madison River, I am told, there is a fisherman on nearly every rock. Is this fishing?:beathead
P.S. O Mykiss: WORD! :thumb
 

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A concensus is GROWING Pardon the pun

Come on Bob stick to what you are good at. Spinning yarns. A fisherman on every rock on the Madison. Give me a break. I get sick and tired of the selfish attitude that we have too many people and too many fisherman. Good grief do you think you (we) are the only people who should experience life and live and learn from its lessons? Good for you that you only had one child. I have three and a step son. So what? None of them have impacted your selfish life too badly have they?

Mark
 

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Substance over style

The unfortunate aspect of "hero worship" of our so-called steelhead pioneers is that they fished during what was, essentially, the time-frame that has all but destroyed the fishing for us today, and future generations. Sure, a few tried to raise awareness between dinners, but where are we today? Somewhere, responsibility lies for this colossal f*ck up. At this point, I'm not prepared to worship those that we have inherited this problem from, and I'm not going to place the burden of salvation on the new-comers in order to distract from the desperate failures of past generations. It's time for new attitudes and new methods, the blame for our current situation can't be placed anywhere other that at the feet of those that claim "steward" of past steelhead prizes. Let's just get on with it and stop pointing fingers at the mirror. There is still time for the past generation to see some salvation for their sins.
 
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A concensus is GROWING Pardon the pun

Why so defensive Mark? How is it selfish to say that our numbers threaten other species? IMOHO it is selfish to destroy habitat to make room for new development at the expense of wildlife. Would you rather your kids live in a country where the only prospect of catching fish is on the day the hatchery has its public fishing event? My wife and I chose not to have kids based on several factors, one of which is environmental, are we selfish? And before you say I don't like kids, come to my math classes and ask my students how I feel about them. Kudos to Bob for having the cajones to post a possibly contoversial question.
 

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A concensus is GROWING Pardon the pun

Mark,

I agree with Big Ben here. I don't think Bob meant it that way. He was merely pointing out that -yes population increases over time an puts a strain on the fishing, the enviroment and ultimately "the scenery" -if you know what I mean... Nature is a place many of us seek quiet, solitude, peace and to be with nature and hear the "nature-stuff" birds singing, the river dancing instead of peoples conversations, cars etc.... We all get enough of that I'm sure!!!
Good Fishing, DB

Think positively, -Let's hope things get better in the future somehow....
 

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A concensus is GROWING Pardon the pun

In'm not defensive one bit Ben. I am on the offense. If you choose to have no children for whatever reason you choose, I could care less.

But if I'm browsing through a fishing website that I have enjoyed being a part of for many months and someone I have enjoyed reading his work (Bob) posts something that I am passionate about, I will respond.

I am passionate about the outdoors. I have enjoyed the finest of life growing up in Whatcom County. Spent great time, no the best time any person could, hunting and fishing with my grandfather when I was a kid. I'm old enough to have a kid getting his Ph.D. in chemistry at this time, so yeah I'm in my fifties. So I was at school during the zpg horse manure. I bought that garbage for a while, but it was manure then and it is manure now.

I think too few people are in the woods and on the streams. I say get as many people as possible out in the woods and on the streams and many of our problems will disappear when people begin to enjoy what you and I do.

I hope you teach your class to be good stewards of what we have. I would have you encourage them to get out on a stream and I hope you relate to them the wonders of moving water. How it indeed heals the soul.

I hope you catch my drift Ben.

Thanks,

Mark
 

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A concensus is GROWING Pardon the pun

A few thoughts...

Because most people tend to be lazy, and because most people have to work for a living, and they live where they work wich tends to force them all to live in the already heavily populated areas - I'm confident my grandchildren will be able to find some decent fishing. They'll probably have to drive a ways. And then hike a ways more. But they'll find it. And they'll love it.

I think this generation has taken some reasonable steps to stop the decimation that our previous generations were responsible for. Pollution is being more tightly managed and will probably get even better over time. Stream and river habitat is on the uprise for the most part. And at some point I think we may be able to curb overharvest before its too late. We have a long way to go, but at least we have stopped and realized that we have been screwing things up and taking steps to address the problems.

And speaking of my grandchildren - We currently have 3 of our own kids and we plan to adopt another in a few years. I plan to pass down my love and respect for God, nature, and fishing to my children who will probably pass that down to their children. My legacy will live on.

As noted in another post, the population explosion is going to be mostly influenced by groups of people who have very different cultural backgrounds - and for the most part a much different understanding of the importance of protecting our naturual resources. I don't want to sound racial at all (after all, white man did 99% of the destruction so far), but many of us have observed the groups that have been moving in from Eastern Europe, Asia, and hispanic countries as a new breed of poachers who care little about our rules and regulations concerning our natural resources. Our current education system (that is going down hill for the most part every year unfortunately) and a few thoughtful fly fisherman are not going to make much of a dent in changing these differning cultural and moral variances. You can even see the 'red neck' or 'white trash' culture growing more all the time and taking a toll on the environment. And yes, even most of us on this board have a long way to go before our cars, homes, and lifestyles stop taking a toll on the world around us.

When I look at the future, I see the posibilty of some 'golden years' where the world is relatively peaceful and environmentally friendly. But no matter how you slice it, the worst is yet to come. I am so glad that I can trust in God and rest in his inner peace. I know my time here is limitted and I need to make the most of it that I can. Seeing the big picture from God's perspective allows me to have a different kind of hope for the future and a greater motivation to ensure my legacy is passed down through my children.

Shoot - and here I just told myself I wouldn't get caught up in this thread. Oops :beathead
 

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A concensus is GROWING Pardon the pun

Ben,

Allow me a retraction of one of my above sentences. I do care that you have chosen not to have children. Above I stated that I could care less. That is not correct.

I am quite certain that you would make a great father and I do hope you will consider passing on to your future offspring all that you can about the wonders of life on this great planet of ours. You never know Ben, your kids may be the ones to come up with one of the next miracles of modern medicine and have the most amazing positive impact on many many peoples lives.

Get busy my friend, being a Dad is the greatest thing I have ever experienced.

Mark
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
A concensus is GROWING Pardon the pun

Mark,
I don't know if I appreciate your implication that somehow I am a selfish person. I devoted my life to one of the most caring of the helping professions: teaching. No one can accuse a good teacher of being selfish.
I spin "yarns" for the fun of it, for the amusement of myself and others. But it does not mean that I have no social consciousness as you imply, nor will I be told to stick to anything simply because you or anyone else says to do so. I wish to enter this forum from time to time in a serious manner and I think it's up to the admins. to decide whether or not I should just stick to humor.
I started this thread to broach a subject that I know is controversial and I don't expect everyone to agree with my position. But I do expect no personal attacks will be taken, and toleration will be provided to all points of view.
With that said, I am amazed at how this issue of population is so ignored by our fly fishing fraternity. Most just don't want to get involved but it was just that attitude that allowed the birth and flourishing of anti-semitism in Nazi Germany.:professor
 
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